Waterproofing for Wellness: Designing Durable, Sustainable, and Safe Tiled Assemblies

This podcast examines the occupant wellness and sustainability implications of waterproofing systems in Division 9 wet zone applications. We explore design considerations, material selection, specification language, and installation methods that directly affect occupant safety, building durability, and environmental performance. By addressing common oversights and highlighting innovative solutions, the podcast equips design professionals with strategies to prevent failures, reduce liability, and align with sustainable building frameworks. Podcast participants will gain actionable knowledge that supports compliance with ASTM/ANSI standards, enhances long-term performance, and contributes to healthier, more resilient built environments.

This podcast is sponsored by Noble Company. Today's podcast guest is Dean Moilanen. Dean is a Division 9 waterproofing, crack isolation, and permeation specialist who advises on some of the most demanding and prestigious projects in the USA. As a 30-year veteran of the tile industry, Dean's relationships with architects, builders, and owners allow him access to some of the most challenging and compelling design issues in the industry. Dean's extensive career on job sites gives him a real-world perspective as he has seen first-hand success and failure relating to product selection, installation issues, and sequencing techniques.

Design professionals who listen to the podcast can earn AIA and GBCI CE credit by logging in to www.greence.com and taking the online quiz.

Contact Us:

• https://www.ronblank.com
• https://specshaman.com


Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to the SpecShaman podcast, the show that explores the world of building product manufacturers, architects and engineers, sustainable design and technology and trends. We engage in thought provoking discussions with renowned experts, industry pioneers, and visionaries who are making a significant impact in the construction industry. Join us as we explore groundbreaking ideas, revolutionary concepts, and the latest advancements shaping the built environment.

I hope you enjoy this week's episode. Let's get started. Welcome to the SpecShaman podcast.

I'm your host, Megan Vipond. And today I'm excited to dive into a topic that is essential to every design professional waterproofing. Whether you're designing residential or commercial spaces, properly specified waterproofing systems are the unsung heroes of durability, safety and performance.

Joining me today is Dean Moylanen, director of architectural services at Noble Company. Dean is an industry expert with years of experience in waterproofing, design and specification. Dean, welcome to the podcast.

Well, thank you, Megan. We've been talking about this for a while, so I'm looking forward to sitting down with you and getting into it. Fantastic.

Now, before we get into the technical side, could you start us off by sharing what first inspired you to get into the waterproofing industry? Well, you know, it was a good question. And I was working for Dow Tile in the early to mid 90s in Las Vegas. And just, you know, even though I worked for a tile company, I find myself drawn to more of the allied products, the thinsets, the grouts, the waterproof membranes.

And so I just seem to enjoy that level of detail and that approach to construction challenges and problem resolution. And so I just, over a period of time, gravitated towards a company that allowed me to explore those type of resolution scenarios. Great.

Well, we're excited to hear your expertise on the subject today. Now, let's start with the fundamentals. When we talk about specifying waterproofing systems for wet zones under Division 9, what do you see as the most critical design considerations? Well, I think I just got done doing a lunch and learn today for an architectural firm here in Dallas, and everyone's got to be on the same page about what you're trying to achieve.

And it may seem simple on its face. Gee, we're trying to waterproof a shower. Gee, we're trying to waterproof, you know, a health club.

The devil is always in the details. And you need to get really granular. OK, what are my expectations? You know, it's not just as simple as waterproofing.

What do I want from my waterproofing system or solution? How do the demands differ between residential and commercial waterproofing applications? Well, there is some overlap, but typically, you know, especially now in our current economy, you know, residential home building is really challenged to be affordable and to be put into the market at a price where you're going to attract homebuyers. And so you might see waterproofing solutions that may be tilted towards the economic savings of a simpler, lower-cost system with the expectation that a residential project won't have the kind of serious demands and trials that a commercial project may have. Typically, you know, commercial projects have their budget constraints as well.

But, you know, depending on the nature of the builder and what their requirements are, you can see a much wider array of products offered at a variety of price points. And at what stage of the design process should waterproofing details be integrated into the documents to ensure smooth coordination with contractors and installers? As soon as possible. I mean, I have been working with specification writers and owners and architects over the last several decades.

I have seen architectural firms who, they're great firms. They've been around for decades. But for whatever reason, their 09300 tile and stone waterproofing details can be sometimes a little bit vague, a little bit ambiguous.

And you really, you don't want to do that. You want to get, know early on exactly what you expect. Because although waterproofing typically represents about 1% of an overall building budget, it is a leading, waterproofing failures, shower failures specifically, are the number one drivers of remediation and litigation.

So, it's really important to understand what you need early on so you don't get, if you leave it till the very end, then you're leaving that in the contractor's hands to decide what to use, which may not always be to your client's advantage. So, what are some of the common design oversights then that lead to those failures in the tile installations? As time goes on, we have more and more information at our fingertips. But typically, I find out that with the vast array of information that most specification writers and architects must try to be aware of, even sometimes they don't realize what exactly they need.

You know, beyond the generic, gee, we need waterproofing in our shower. Well, that's great. But how are we going to achieve that? And then, what are we, what products will we use to achieve that? And what's the level of performance we want? I think you have to, you have to get very granular with your expectations early on.

And then, you have to be very, very, very detailed in spilling it out in your project details and your specifications because any kind of wiggle room that you leave there will be seized upon by the general contractor and subcontractor. So, I know slope to drain is kind of a big, a big one here. How does slope to drain design factor into the overall waterproofing strategy for tiled wet areas? Well, again, it's kind of almost, it's almost humorous in that we, in this presentation we did today in Dallas, slope to drain came up.

And, you know, even amongst the architects in the room, some of them were led to believe that slope to drain was a recommendation. No, it's a requirement. It's an ANSI standard spelled out very clearly in the ANSI standards for building an effective wet area shower pan detail.

And, you have to get past that sort of confusion and have, and the contractors as well. There are some contractors who still labor under the assumption that sloping is something you can do it sometimes, but you don't have to do it. No, you have to do it all the time, two percent, a quarter inch per foot.

It is a requirement of wet area waterproofing and tile installation best practices. You mentioned ANSI, and standards and codes are always involved and evolving. Which ASTM and ANSI standards should designers be sure to incorporate into their specifications to ensure performance requirements are met? Well, I try to keep things simple, and I will tell you that the main two areas that are tied to waterproofing failures in Division IX applications are movement and vapor permeation.

And so, there's an ANSI standard, A118.12, that relates to movement, and that's a crack isolation standard. But, I make the case with architects, you can have the best waterproof membrane in the world, but if it doesn't hold up when the kind of movements happen that are going to happen in a construction detail, then it's not going to be a very effective waterproof membrane. So, in looking at what you want to use for a waterproof membrane, you should look at, what are the, how do they perform relative to the ANSI standards for crack isolation? Because if the membrane can be disrupted at a fairly low point, let's say a sixteenth of an inch, and that disruption can cause a failure in the tile installation, well, it's common sense.

If that movement can actually damage or in some way negatively impact ceramic tile or natural stone, the membrane's probably going to be impacted as well. So, that's why you want to tie in ANSI A118.12 to your waterproofing requirements. And with so many updates to codes and standards each year, are there strategies that you use to stay current and ensure that designs and specs remain compliant? Great question.

We, within our company, and most companies employ the same type of tactic. You're going to have individuals who may be on a variety of committees within the industry. It could be a Tile Council of North America Committee.

It could be a National Tile Contractors Association Committee. It could be Materials, Means, and Methods Committee. But the point is, you try to have people in your organization who are on the leading edge of those types of discussions and changes, so you can roll them into your own product offerings as these things evolve.

Let's talk about systems. What are the pros and cons of sheet-applied membranes versus liquid-applied membranes in wet zones? Well, and for the last three decades, there's been, you know, two ways to skin the cat, you know, two ways to get your waterproofing taken care of. One was with a liquid-applied system or fluid-applied system.

The other was with a sheet-membrane system. They both have their pros and cons. Obviously, liquid membranes are a lot easier to put in on the face of it.

A paintbrush or a roller, sometimes a sprayer, but the challenges are with liquid-membrane systems, you're making compromises with that system's ability to respond to movement. I'll give you a general overall observation. The majority of liquid-membrane systems cannot meet the ANSI 819.12 high-performance metrics.

That's an eighth of an inch or more of movement. So, by using a liquid-membrane system, I'm not saying it won't provide crack isolation protection or performance, but not much over a sixteenth of an inch, okay? So, sheet membranes, I like to say, regardless of whose sheet membrane it is, it could be PVC, it could be polyethylene, it could be chlorinated polyethylene, but you can't cheat a sheet. By that, I mean, if you need 24 square feet to waterproof your shower pan, you're going to cut 24 square feet off of that sheet membrane to have it installed.

With a liquid-membrane, you know, you're reliant on, well, is that installer going to put enough liquid down? Are they going to put the second, maybe third coat? Are they going to use reinforcing fabric where they should? There's just more variables. Both systems can work and work well for a very long period of time, but all things considered, you're going to get a higher level of performance with regard to permeation and movement out of sheet membrane systems. Now, does your approach shift depending on whether you're specifying waterproofing for floors versus walls behind tile? Yes, you might have the same product used on both the walls and the shower pan, but there'll be different reasons why you're using them.

For example, if you have a low-permeation sheet membrane, and by low-permeation, there's an ASTM standard, ASTM E96 Procedure E, and essentially, it's a 0.5 is the magic number you want to reach, 0.5. So that means that that product could be used in a steam room. I've had some contractors and some architects, well, gee, that's overkill. Not really.

There was a large hospitality and casino owner and designer some years ago formed their own forensic committee to sort of examine, you know, why did certain systems fail and why did certain systems seem to do better? And they found out that with regard to hospitality, health clubs, student, faculty, dorm, shower, whatever situations, steam rooms, obviously, and some hospital situations as well, that you have to have a low-permeation membrane in place because you're going to generate enough steam over time that if it's not addressed with an effective membrane on the walls, you're going to have a migration of that vapor through the wall assembly, and it's going to get back into the stud walls where it meets a fluid source, and now you've got mold. Now, bonded crack isolation and waterproofing membranes are often recommended. What performance advantages do they bring to tiled spaces? Well, again, let's get a little more granular.

Whether it's a liquid membrane or a sheet membrane, they're both going to be bonded, and by that, there's an anti-standard A118.10 for bonded systems, okay, A118.10. You're going to look at whether it's a liquid or a sheet. They're both going to be bonded. Now, the question is, or the observation is, or the line of demarcation is, a liquid membrane gets bonded directly to the substrate, and if you look back at basic high school physics, anything that's directly bonded is going to affect a more rapid transmission of energy from one source to another.

So, let's say you've got substrate movement, you've got thermal cycling, you've got whatever's causing that substrate to move, you want to have the membrane on top of it be able to diffuse and mitigate that movement, and that's why we bring into play the observation that a liquid membrane is directly bonded, therefore, you're not going to have as an effective means of stopping or mitigating that movement that causes damage to your waterproof membrane, damage to your tile assembly. A composite sheet membrane, and by the way, every sheet membrane waterproofing solution out there is a composite sheet bonded system. What that means is there's three layers, top, a bottom, and a middle core.

Obviously, the bottom layer of that membrane bonds to the substrate. The top layer is where the tile stone is bonded to. That middle layer, whether it's polyvinyl chloride, polyethylene, or chlorinated polyethylene, is like a mini shock absorber because it's not direct.

What's happening on the top of the surface is not directly attached to the bottom of that installation detail. You're going to have a mitigation and diffusion of the energy, and it's not just me saying it, that's why you have ANSI A110.12. They test all these products, and they were able to show over time that sheet membranes perform at a consistently higher level with regard to bonded membranes for crack isolation. Presloped foam shower pans are increasingly popular.

How are presloped foam shower pans more reliable than field-constructed mortar beds when it comes to waterproofing integrity? Well, a dry pack mortar bed is always going to be a very stout and time-honored way to create that slope to drain. The challenge is with the changes in our requirements in the building industry, and the simple fact that a lot of learned and very knowledgeable tile contractors who knew how to do dry pack mortar have exited the system. They've retired.

They moved on to something else. We need to have a more reliable and a more quickly installed alternative to dry pack mortar. So when you look at these prefabricated pans, they're not all created equal.

There is a certain amount of variation in quality and ability to withstand point loading or compression. At the end of the day, having a consistent slope to drain, having, in many cases, these preformed pans and trays or having the waterproof membrane pre-installed as well. So what's happening is you're taking practices and installation methods that had to be done in the field.

You're bringing them into a more controlled setting in a factory. And then when that preformed pan or tray gets to the job site, it's already pre-sloped. It's already pre-waterproofed.

So you're minimizing the variables that could cause failure in your waterproofing. Now, we also sometimes see overlap with acoustics. How do sound attenuation and waterproofing materials work together or sometimes conflict? Well, you're bringing up a real timely scenario.

As of late, and I can't tell you why, there are a lot of drying areas. Imagine you have a wet area shower, you've got the drying area of your bathroom. But for some reason, hospitality and multifamily and condos all of a sudden are saying, well, we want sound isolation in the drying areas of our bathroom.

And you would think on the face of it, well, gee, I have a barefooted individual. How much impact noise are they going to render on that floor? But regardless of the motivation why they want that product, we're seeing it specified. So what you want to look for, you don't want two or three different sheet membranes or two or three different products on the same floor.

There are systems out there that can offer you waterproofing, crack isolation, and sound isolation in the same product. So what you're doing is you're simplifying the installation, which means a lesser chance of failure. But you're also saving a tremendous amount of money because you're not having the labor and material costs for putting a second or even third membrane system on a floor.

Now, looking at the bigger picture, what innovations in membrane technology have you found most impactful over the last several years? Well, I will tell you, I think that the biggest change that I think in seven or 10 years will be the coin of the realm are these prefabricated shower pans and trays. Four or five years ago, they were sort of an outlier. They were sort of still in the beta test version or early adopter sort of scenario for contractors and architects.

You know, five or six years into it now, the message I'm sharing with architects is that in the next five to 10 years, you're going to see dry pack mortar will always be around, but it's going to become a very artisanal, a very sort of high-end only for, you know, if you can afford dry pack mortar craftsmen, if you can afford waiting to have them do it correctly, that's great. But the rest of the world has to kind of move on. And so you're going to see these prefabricated systems become just the norm, really.

So I think that's the biggest single change in the last five years is advancing how we are putting together these wet area waterproofing solutions. All right, fantastic. Let's shift into specifications now.

How do you use Division IX specs to clearly define responsibilities between the designer and the contractor? I think I should say, I won't say I think, but my observation has been the more information you can provide to an architect or specification writer with regard to how to accurately convey to the general contractor or tile subcontractor exactly what you expect of them, the less chances there are for, oh, gee, I didn't know, I wasn't sure. And so, you know, we lean real heavily on the Tile Council of North America handbook. We lean real heavily on the ANSI standards.

And we try to, you know, the patterns of omission that we see, we try to address with the specification writers to, look, start including reference the ANSI standard for crack isolation in that part of your specifications. You know, make sure you reference ASTM E96 Procedure E and make it clear that, look, we don't care whose product you use. We want to make sure it meets ASTM E96 Procedure E. Okay, so there's still a lot of work to be done because I still see some specifications out there where when it gets down to Division 9 waterproofing, you'll see the most vague or the most bare of references or documentation in relation to, gee, what is the tile contractor supposed to use? And again, the more wiggle room you leave to a subcontractor, more opportunity he's going to have to use whatever he wants, which may be fine, but may be at odds with what you want.

Can you think of any examples of the language to use to avoid ambiguity between designers and contractors? Yeah, I certainly know, you know, I'm not a certified document technician, but I've read enough of these specifications to see that many times at the opening parts of the specification, you'll have your references, your reference, whether ASTM or ANSI or ISO or whatever, you'll see those standards and those protocols referenced early on. So when you make sure your specifications say, reference ANSI A118.12, high performance, but make sure you say high performance. And then when you reference high performance, make sure in the products you list that they're actually high performance parts, because I've seen everything from the sublime to the ridiculous.

Imagine I've seen some specifications saying, you know, use crack isolation in these areas. Okay, that's pretty vague. But if they say, gee, use crack isolation, your waterproof crack isolation membrane should adhere to the requirements of, you know, ANSI A118.12. Your waterproof membrane should adhere to requirements of ASTM E96 Procedure E. But then make sure you reference products that achieve that level of performance.

I've seen where people have went to the trouble of, they'll mention an ANSI standard, they'll mention an ASTM standard. But then when they list their products that are acceptable, none of the products meet that standard. And I'm not going to pile on to the spec writer or architect, because they're just beleaguered with information they need to be on top of.

That's where the manufacturer's rep or the tech service line or whoever works for a particular waterproofing membrane company, they've got to get out there and let their, you know, gee, if you feel strongly you want our product to be used, you have to spell it out to this level of granularity or else it's not going to be used. Now, when it comes to waterproofing in Division IX, what details do you think are most commonly left out of the specifications? And what are the potential consequences? Well, I think, you know, and I don't want to sound a broken record here, but, you know, if you put somewhere in your specification language that you require a crack isolation membrane, but you don't reference what type of crack isolation membrane and how you want that crack isolation membrane to perform to what level of performance standards, well, then you're probably not going to get what you really want. The same thing is true of vapor migration or permeation.

If you state somewhere in your documentation that you want, you know, a waterproof membrane on the wall surfaces that's going to effectively, you know, block the majority of vapor migration issues on that wall surface, but you don't reference a standard and you don't reference products that meet that standard, then you're going to have people just, you know, okay, well, you weren't clear about what you want, so here's what we're going to give you. Now, how granular should the specification be when it comes to prep, installation, detailing? That's a very, that's a challenging field to be in because you're sort of balanced between, you know, you can't write war and peace, you can't just go on and on and on about every product to the nth degree, but at the same time, you've got to put enough information in there that, so there's no ambiguity, there's a lack of, of, you don't want any sort of descriptions or product recommendations or specifications or performance requirements that are needed, and then not tell the person who's bidding this project how they're going to get there, you know, gee, if we want a superior level of crack isolation, you better reference A118.12 high performance. You know, if you want to have a superior level of vapor migration permeation performance, you better label ASTM E96 procedure E, and hopefully find two or three products you can reference that meet that criteria.

So again, the contractor can't come back on anyone and say, well, gee, you weren't clear enough, gee, I didn't know. Most contractors expect that specifications are going to be very wordy, very detailed, very granular to begin with, so I think it's in the architect or owner's or spec writer's best interest, when in doubt, be verbose, be, you know, be articulate, be, you know, use as much language as you need to use to get your point across. Have you ever found that too much detail ever backfires? Well, you know, I think you have to be careful because somewhere in between the labs where manufacturers produce their products and in the offices where the architects specify these products, there's a real world, and sometimes things come up in the real world that no one can anticipate.

And, you know, if you box yourself into a corner with your language and your product selection, it may come up against a scenario in the field where it's nice that you want that, but that simply cannot be achieved based on the job site conditions we have or whatever might be out there. But, you know, of course, if that happens, then the RFI process has to come into play. But, yeah, they're having some scenarios where the tile contractor almost felt like he was so restricted by the requirements of a certain product that, you know, gee, is there a possibility I can actually put this in correctly? You know, there's so many different requirements and recommendations and details that, you know, is this a product that was made in tile heaven? You know, can we achieve what it's telling us we can't achieve in the real world? And so that's where you have to be careful.

You don't bury the subcontractor or general in too much information. Now, on the installation side, what are the most commonly missed or poorly executed methods that can compromise waterproofing in tile assemblies? You know, waterproofing is one of the most important things on a project. Again, it's a driver of most remediation and litigation.

So, you know, you want from a contractor's point of view, you want to have your best people, not the newest person on the team, not the person who is in the doghouse because they sort of play for work. You want your best people doing the waterproofing, OK? And QHTC is really important. I mean, whether you employ it at a whether the tile contractor is a person on his, you know, a project manager who, you know, keeps an eye on the quality and the continuity of installation or whether the owner sometimes hires a waterproof consultant, whether the GC might have a QHTC person.

But you've got to, once requirements are spelled out, you have to make sure that the installer and the installation company are adhering consistently to those requirements. So from your experience, what are some best practices that ensure long-term waterproofing performance? Well, I think, you know, it sounds a little bit, you know, pie in the sky or, you know, rose colored glasses, but I shared this in a recent presentation with architects. You know, when the architect and the installer and the manufacturer, all three, because they're all three tied into the success of this installation of product, you know, if they're all familiar with, OK, this is the project that we're being installed on, and here's what they need from our product in this project.

You know, when you have, you know, pre-con meetings with the installer, the manufacturer, and the architect in general, before the project starts, you know, when you do models or mock-ups, all of these, I mean, I tell you what, models and mock-ups, 50, 20 years ago, they were the exception, not the rule. More and more they become, especially with, you know, hospitals, hospitality, you know, your larger budget projects, they found out that putting a model or a mock-up room in, and, you know, pre-anticipates a lot of problems that could happen down the road. It's kind of ironic, because I've had people get very upset, like, in a mock-up or model, like, oh, this is not working, and this is not what we wanted, and they're getting very upset, and go, OK, duly noted, but that's the beauty of a mock-up or a model.

Let's catch it now. We can do another mock-up. We can do another model.

But if you wait until production starts, and now you discover, oh, wait, that's not going to really pencil out, or, oh, gee, that's not what we thought it was going to be, well, then now you've got a situation where you could have solved a lot of those problems way in advance by doing a mock-up or a model. Yeah, absolutely. Mock-ups and field work, field inspections definitely play a big role.

Yep. And coordination is key. Oh, yes.

What steps can be taken to make sure installers are truly following the design intent? In most situations with a manufacturer of, let's say, a sheet membrane or a liquid membrane, and by the way, most companies out there who are offering waterproofing solutions in Division 9 are offering sheet membrane solutions and liquid, because there's a place for each of them, but you have to be in touch with the end user, and it's a multi-headed process. You've got to be in touch with the contractor, making sure he's aware of how your product is installed, and making sure he can do it efficiently, and he can do it at a rate that he can make some money on the deal, and you have to make sure the architect is dialed in. It's, you know, it's, there's a lot to, there's a lot that goes into successful installations and waterproofing, and that's just, you really have to be sort of very zealous about making sure that people putting in your products know what they're doing, because unfortunately, that's, that really represents the majority of failures is that you had a good or even a great product, but if it wasn't put in correctly, it fails.

So, with all your experience, Dean, can you share an example of where maybe an overly vague or overly rigid spec led to issues in the field, and what would you do differently? Well, here, I'll give you a good example, and I'm not picking on custom home builders, or custom home architects, or subcontractors, but the methodology is a little different for those folks, in that, you know, you'll get a custom home architect who, he may build three or four, maybe even sometimes one home per year, but sometimes his homes are 15 million dollars, 30 million dollars, and higher, and that, essentially, it's almost like a commercial project, but the irony is, with, with custom home architects, after a while, they kind of tend to use the same group of subs, and the same group of general contractors, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I've been at conventions and events where we had nothing but custom home builders for an entire weekend, and you'd find out that, oftentimes, the thing that's most important, and let's face it, beautiful wall treatments, and rugs, and hardwoods, and all the design filigrees that make a custom home unique, they're all great, but if the home leaks like a sieve, the owners are going to be very unhappy, so what you'll see is, sometimes, a huge focus on what kind of fabric, and what kind of wood, and what kind of stone, but then they'll leave the waterproofing specifications very generic, because, well, we've had, we've had sunshine tile and floors doing our work for 25 years, and we just, you know, they put in what we need, so the irony is, sometimes, the most expensive homes out there are getting really inexpensive, budget-driven solutions, which, that shouldn't be the case. When someone's, you know, building a 15, a 10, a 5, an $8 million home, they should have the best waterproofing, not, not the waterproofing that suits the subcontractor's own motivations. Now, sustainability is a major driver in product selection.

What's the process for deciding whether to include specific manufacturers, or allow product substitutions, and how do you ensure performance standards are still met? You know, sustainability, and, of course, our, our focus on the environment, and making the world we live in a safer, healthier place to live, those are all admirable, admirable goals, and I think, overall, the construction industry has made great strides in that area, but, you know, part of the challenge of that is that the products are being, that are being offered, you've got to really delineate, because, you know, the whole, the whole area of sustainability, and what's a good product to use, and what's not a good product to use, that's not a black and white, clearly defined issue, it's evolving, and so, my point is this, I've heard, and I've seen this, there's a red list out there, there's a list amongst architects of products you just can't have in your, in your, in your design, and building, and architectural, and construction process, and that's all well and good, but a lot of those products, they're not, you know, for example, let's say, let's say, chlorinated polyethylene is probably not the world's most environmentally friendly product, but you're not using chlorinated polyethylene in its unadulterated raw state, it's a part of a product that has other components that by the time it's used in these products, the impacts, negative or positive of CPE, are mitigated because it's not raw CPE being put onto your shower floor, CPE was part of a thermoplastic sheet membrane, and in its finished state, is pretty inert and harmless, so you have to be very careful before you start saying, we're not going to use this, or you're not going to use that, because, and my, my, my simple analogy is this, let's just say you have a waterproof membrane you make out of bamboo shoots, okay, beautiful for the environment, and no impact, and just all these wonderful plus side reasons why we're using recycled bamboo shoots to make waterproof membranes, but here's the rub, it only lasts five years, okay, so does that mean every five years, you're going to tear apart your showers and rebuild them, because that is far more damaging, and far more, puts far, far more pressure on the environment, and our resources, then let's say you use chlorinated polyethylene, or polyethylene, or polyvinyl chloride as part of your sheet membrane waterproofing solution, well, it may not be the most environmentally friendly product unto itself, but the fact that it's used in creating a waterproof membrane that's going to last 15, 20, 25 years, you're doing the environment of a favor, because it's no good to environmentally friendly product with a life cycle that's so low that you end up remodeling and causing more disruption and resource issues than you would have had, had you used another product on the face that may have some larger environmental impacts, but only when used in its original true source, and not as part of a finished product, does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. So, it sounds like durability is really another word for, or a big factor in sustainability. Right.

So, what role does product durability and life cycle play in reducing waste and promoting sustainability in product selection? You can only tell the truth, and by that, you know, the construction industry is an industry that obviously have to be able to build homes and schools and grocery stores and offices, and, you know, geez, look at concrete. I mean, I think the concrete industry unto itself is one of the most environmentally unfriendly products out there, but are you going to not use concrete to build your buildings? That's, you know, maybe someday in the future, they'll have some new, wonderful product, but, you know, the time being, you've got to make your compromises and go, well, we're going to use concrete to build lots of things. What can we do to make concrete less impactful on the environment? And so, I think that you've got to have a very nuanced approach, and I have seen where there's, there are manufacturers and products and systems out there that, again, on the face of it, they're not the most environmentally friendly ingredients, but when you look at their contribution, negative or positive, to the overall health of a building, you see projects that are lead gold, lead platinum.

They're using products that have some level of environmentally unfriendly ingredients as a part of the system, but overall, their contribution to any negative effect on that building's sustainability are very, very minuscule. Now, what about warranties? Do warranties influence material selection? Well, it's funny about warranties, you know, I was kind of surprised by this, but in the last three or four years, it's all about, you know, CYA, you know, you're trying to cover, you know, you're trying to make sure that you're covering your client, you're covering yourself. I mean, no one wants to be sued because they didn't perform on a project, so warranties have become very important to owners, very important to architects.

I am kind of sad to report that more and more warranties are being used as a marketing device, and you have to be very careful because, you know, at the end of the day, most of the product warranties for most of the products in Division 9, their warranties are very, very similar, but you'll sometimes see where someone says, well, we offer a 25 or a 55 or a 95-year warrant, and just put a number on there, you know, to capture someone's attention, and the thing that Dylan realizes is the majority of, it's sad to say, but the majority of failures, and I'm focusing on Division 9, gee, my shower pan leaked, or gee, the crack isolation membrane didn't work the way it was supposed to, or gee, that sound isolation is not doing a very good job. Unfortunately, most times, those shortcomings, when you have an independent third-party forensic investigator step in, they'll point to the installer. Now, if the manufacturer knows that the majority of failures lay at the installer's feet, well, then you're, you might feel like, gee, we can almost say anything we want on our warranties because we know that most times the installer is going to be blamed, and I'm not saying every manufacturer out there does that, but we're talking about the truth.

Most installation failures, most problems in construction that someone might want to point to, oh, it's the product's fault, or the adhesive's fault, or whatever you want, you know, the screw's fault. It's not usually the case. Look, every manufacturer has a bad day at the factory.

You know, we live in an imperfect world, and you may have a bad run of whatever you're producing, but how often that contributes to a failure is pretty minuscule, so warranties have taken on a very strong position. When I'm asked about our company's warranties, I try to state them because I think they're good warranties, but I don't dwell on them because I would like to focus on the more kind of just pragmatic, well, take a look around. How many massive failure headline-grabbing problems in your project or your product have you heard that company being involved in? Or just go online, go online and Google up your favorite products or maybe your favorite products to compete against and see what kind of tracker could they have in the court of law because ultimately, if something's serious enough, this could be a class action lawsuit or a construction defect litigation lawsuit, and those are all public records, so if you really want to find out how your company's doing, take a look and see how many cases are in court with their product, and that might give you an idea of the true nature of their performance.

So it sounds like while warranty is an important aspect, there might be some pitfalls in areas to do their due diligence before selecting. Yeah, you want to take a look at, you know, what does that warranty really mean? I mean, there's lifetime warranties, then there are lifetime warranties transferable, which obviously if you're an owner or builder, you like that because that means that warranty I have on my products or my systems are going to transfer to the people I sell it to. That's a good thing in that person's eyes.

Is the warranty just for replacing the products or does it cover labor materials? There's a lot of just nuances to warranties, and again, when in doubt, take a little time to investigate what's the prior history of this company in the area of litigation or failures, and you'll get a pretty good idea pretty quickly about what you're getting into. Now, how can designers specify waterproofing systems that balance performance with environmental impact? That's a good question. You know, there's so many different methods and means and products and systems out there, and they're all somewhat different.

Oftentimes, it can be vastly different. I think the best way you can do that is to pick up the phone and talk to your, or send an email out and say, hey, I'm thinking about using your product for this installation. Can you tell me how you deal? How is that product going to measure up with some of the sustainability issues we have? And just when in doubt, ask, and people have to tell you.

If they sort of fumble with an answer, then that might be an indication of what's really going on, but I think the best, most reliable way I can think of is to keep abreast of changes and whatever system or product you like to work with to make sure they're congruent with what you're, because most design firms, architectural firms, they have an ethos. They have a value proposition. They have a company credo that they go by, so they want to give the best work possible for what they offer in the design community, and the best way they can do that is just try stay on top of.

Waterproofing is one of the most litigious areas of construction, so if you know that, I'm sure most architects do, that's why you see a lot of architectural firms, they're now hiring a waterproofing consultant. It's almost like, not that you need to wash your hands as the architect, but we're going to bring in an architectural consultant because that's what they do, or I'm sorry, a waterproofing consultant, because that's what they do all the time. So while we as the architects have to design this whole building, we're going to rely on the granular sort of narrow view focus and intensity of a waterproofing consultant to make sure that what we're doing is copacetic.

What about recycled content? You know, it plays a role in the manufacturing of shower pan systems. How does that impact the performance, durability, or sustainability certifications? Well, I think, you know, I think most companies have some level of recycled content in their products. You know, whether that level of recycled content is going to be enough to move the dial.

You know, one thing I haven't discussed at all are these HPDs and these EPDs, you know, and they are a growing source of documentation that helps design professionals to make them feel better about what they're using. Now, the EPDs and HPDs can be expensive, and there are some manufacturers that feel like, oh gee, another, another, it's almost like another tax, you know, another, gee, you know, we all get we want a healthier world, you know, but we, you know, we pay to belong to this council, and we pay to get this done, and then we, you know, we have these people on board to make sure that we're, you know, there are layers of not only regulations and best practices and expert installers or expert advisors or consultants, but since it's a real challenge, because it is ever evolving, ever changing, and you want, you just want to make sure that what you need, what your firm, what you need from a product, you know, features and benefits are going to align, not only it's, you have to not only align with what the customer wants from performance, but also have to align with these environmental sustainability requirements as well. Now, thinking about LEED, well, the Living Building Challenge, you know, from your perspective, which of those green building rating systems most often recognize sustainable features in projects, and how can designers align their Division IX specs to support those? The one I hear most often, look, it just may be a, this may be a shortcoming on my part, but the one of the, you know, we tend to hear about the, this project is going for a platinum level of LEED certification, this project is going for a gold level of LEED certification, and, you know, and of course, one of the ways that a company can help contribute to their products being recognized under those guidelines is, you know, I just mentioned it, you know, having the required HPDs or EPDs that can, those are very granular, those are very, very concise ways of reassuring an architect or specification writer that, okay, this company has an EPD or HPD on these products or these solution systems, that's going to make them feel more confident about specifying you, and to that end, I mean, what seems to be happening out there is that unless you're a manufacturer who's got the required EPDs and or HPDs and those kind of related sustainable, sustainability documents on board, you may not be allowed to even be used, or you might not be allowed to even go into an architect's office to make a presentation because you have, you don't have that level of documentation to support your contribution to sustainability.

And looking back, there's obviously a lot of success stories, but some failures too. So, how have those past waterproofing failures paved the way for better installation methods? You know, living in Las Vegas for 36 years and spent 26 years in the waterproofing end of the construction business, word tends to get out, whether it's just industry gossip wire, of course, with social media, it's hard to keep anything a secret any more, any longer. So, you know, people tend to, in the industry, in the construction industry, they tend to find out through a variety of methods of, you know, what's working and not, what's not working.

And, you know, there's, I'm not trying to be snarky or disrespectful, but, you know, I think all of us as human beings, sometimes when we hear about the duress or the scrutiny that a competitor is getting for their shortcomings, not that we rejoice and we want to see, we don't think enjoying someone else not profiting or maybe even being held accountable legally, but by the same token, you know, word to the wise, those type of projects tend to get filtered out into the building, you know, the building industry's just gossip wire. And oftentimes, sometimes too, you'll see within a, maybe a publication for ceramic tile and natural stone, or it could be a variety of specialized publications. But when you, you know, and sometimes they'll take a famous failure and they'll do a forensic analysis.

But, you know, there's been no question that if you get a serious enough failure, that's sometimes as a springboard and to documenting, well, look, they didn't do this over here and look what happened. Now, if you are, if they had just done this and that, they wouldn't have had those problems. So the person down the line goes, well, you know, I don't want that kind of horrendous tile bill or legal bill, or I don't want to be hounded out of existence as far as my business.

So gee, maybe I'm not going to do the same things they did. So it's, it's kind of like learning, learning the hard way, or what's, what's he'll saying, would you rather learn from the mistakes you made or from the mistakes someone else made? And I think that plays a certain part in it, you know, where it gets around and, and it does affect change. I mean, I know there are products that 10 years ago, oh, use this outside.

It's this, it's wonderful. It's, you can use this product for your exterior decks with their installing ceramic tile. Now, guess what? No, I guess that didn't work out.

There were some lawsuits, there were some serious litigation, there were lots of money loss. So now that product is not used outdoors anymore, which doesn't help the people who used it and got in trouble, but it sure saves future end users a lot of agony because they're not going to put it in that application anymore. Absolutely.

A lot of trial and error. Dean, this has all been incredibly insightful. To summarize the importance of granular specifications and accurate installations in terms of liability, who holds the responsibility when waterproofing fails if all considerations that we've discussed today aren't taken into account? Sometimes that's for the courts to decide, you know, and I know that I was just in architect's office today here in Dallas and, you know, let me give you an example of just, there are certain substrates, backer boards, okay, that will tell the end user the specification right of the architect.

Oh, just, we're waterproof. You don't need to use anything else. Just use us.

Okay. That may be true, but I will tell you with at least one of these products, it's been around for a while and it's a good product for use in wet areas, but I will also tell you that there have been millions of square feet of waterproof membranes put on top of this, quote, waterproof board, because right now in today's construction industry, the number one driver of remediation and repair and failure and complaints is wet area shower waterproofing. Is that mind-blowing or what? I mean, you think of all the things on a project, you know, just the giant energy requirements, the giant IT and electricity and computer and so many different disciplines to go into creating a building, and of all things, shower waterproofing is the big driver of construction remediation and litigation.

It's quite a, there's been a lot of effort. A lot of people put a lot of money, millions of dollars into training programs and elevating the skill set of tile installers and tile contractors. But I think, you know, from a specification writer's perspective or architect's perspective, you know, get that, whatever system you want to use, get that technical rep on the line, get that product rep in your office, and send them an email, because things do change.

I mean, in my, in the 26 years I've been with my company, we've evolved. Things that we were doing installation-wise 15 years ago, we're not doing it that way anymore, okay? And so, if you're a spec writer or an architect or a contractor who's still operating off of our company's instructions from 2002, you may want to get the instructions from 2025, because that product's probably evolved in some form or fashion, or the installation method has a different kind of sealant, or whatever has gone on to change it. You've got to avail yourself of the most recent updated information for those systems.

It's a big responsibility, you know? It means you've got to step outside of your own requirements and maybe be a part of CSI or AIA or, you know, there are waterproofing organizations. There are all kinds of groups that get together. There are social media groups where like-minds get together.

I think it tells from a variety of sources, but in terms of who is responsible, many times the weight falls on the shoulders of the installer. Sometimes fairly, and it remains to be seen what your opinion is, maybe unfairly. Sometimes the general contractor gets tagged and says, hey, this happened on your watch, you know, you're getting tagged for it.

And of course, sometimes architects, you know, they're trying to avoid problems, but sometimes the courts decide, hey, it was your fault. And I guess the best way to avoid these scenarios is just, you know, have an open dialogue. With those areas of your construction that seem to draw the most attention to litigation, you probably want to put most of your energies into making sure the products and processes you use, you know, are litigation prone, that they're up to snuff and timely, and that they haven't changed over five or six or ten years.

Absolutely. So really working together to get the final outcome. Absolutely.

Now, one last question for you. What is a final piece of industry wisdom that you would like to share with our audience today? Having an open mind and being able to admit to yourself sometimes where maybe, you know, you were misinformed or you were wrong. And if you don't know, you know, don't pretend you know.

And if you don't know, you want to find the right answer, don't just rely on one person or one source for the right answer. Take the time to go through multiple avenues of resolution. It may be a group that meets online.

It could be an online sort of problem resolution forum that certain industries have. It may be talking to your technical rep or several technical reps from different companies. But you really just have you have to you have to have a certain passion for what you're doing and you have to have a certain passion for if I'm associating with this in any way, shape or form, if my companies in any way or shape or form associated with this project, I want to make sure that we're seen in a good light, that I'm seen in a good light.

And the bigger picture, you want to make sure that the ceramic tile stone industry, you know, we want people to be feeling good about using ceramic tile natural stone. It's one of the most durable finished goods out there when installed correctly. So it's in all of our best interest.

To make sure that we're elevating the quality of installations and the knowledge on the part of the installers and also making sure that the architects who are specifying this, that they're armed with the best information so that they they can contribute to the success and not the failure. Fantastic. Dean, thank you so much for sharing your expertise today.

This has been a great discussion on how waterproofing isn't just about keeping water out. It's about protecting design intent, performance and the long term success of every project. Thank you very much for the opportunity.

We appreciate you joining us on the Spec Shaman podcast as we continue exploring the details that make great architecture possible. Thank you for listening to the Spec Shaman podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to our show and leave us a review.

A huge thank you to our guests who made this show possible. Thanks all for this episode, folks. See you next time.