Designing with Defense in Mind: Security Strategies for the Built Environment

This podcast provides design professionals with a foundational understanding of building security through the lens of physical security, material science, and real-world applications. Participants will explore how bullet-resistant materials and forced-entry-resistant design strategies can be integrated into both new and existing structures without compromising aesthetics, functionality, or user experience. The podcast emphasizes how evolving threats, code requirements, product standards like UL 752, and collaboration with manufacturers all contribute to safer building environments. Attendees will gain actionable knowledge to design spaces that safeguard occupants while meeting both performance and design goals.

Podcast Guest:

Rick Snelling 

Vice-President and General Manager

www.Armortex.com

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Transcript

Hello, and welcome to the SpecShaman podcast, the show that explores the world of building product manufacturers, architects, and engineers, sustainable design, and technology and trends. We engage in thought-provoking discussions with renowned experts, industry pioneers, and visionaries who are making a significant impact in the construction industry. Join us as we explore groundbreaking ideas, revolutionary concepts, and the latest advancements shaping the built environment.

I hope you enjoy this week's episode. Let's get started. Hi, and welcome to the SpecShaman podcast.

I'm your host, Megan Vipond. I'm joined today by Rick Snelling, Vice President and General Manager of ArmorTechs. He's here today to discuss building security and the integration of bullet-resistant products.

Hi, Rick. Welcome to the SpecShaman podcast. Well, thank you, Megan.

Hello to you, too. Rick, as we get started here, can you tell us a little bit about your origin story and how you came to be in this segment of the industry? I'm a lifelong Texan, and I've lived in, I guess, Houston, Austin, and now San Antonio for about 25 years or so. After college, I was in the construction business, and then I had a long career in the telecommunications and IT industry before joining ArmorTechs almost 23 years ago, and got into the manufacturing industry in what I consider to have a niche manufacturing part of the industry.

I started out in sales and then moved into operations, and as you mentioned, I'm currently the Vice President and General Manager, and we're keeping busy trying to put out bullet-resistant windows and doors and products like that to keep people safe. Fantastic. So, why is building security so important? Well, I think a building owner, and that could be an office building, that could be a sheriff's office, a school, a church, what have you, but whoever's responsible for the building and the people in the building, they do have a responsibility to provide a secure place to work, go to school, go to worship.

I think that's just an obligation that the people in the building feel secure and comfortable and have that level of confidence that they can take care of business and not be in peril. Absolutely. So, what components then are included to create those secure spaces? You know, I think you've got to define it.

If you look at how to provide security, you've got to be concerned with the threat, and so I always look at it in two broad categories, physical versus electronic, if you will, or cybersecurity. So, on the physical side, which is the space that we participate in, you know, is a concern about someone shooting the building, you know, attacking the building with a gun of some type, and in that case, then the solution would be, or component might be, in addition to perimeter fencing, is, you know, bullet-resistant doors, windows, wall panels, and all those products that go into making a building more physically secure against attacks from, you know, firearms. If it's on the electronic side or cyber side, that's a whole different array of products from cameras to monitoring devices to, obviously, anti-hacking electronics, things like that, to keep a building secure from an electronic standpoint, so it really depends on what the threat is.

So, it falls in those two broad categories of physical versus electronic. Yes, so electronic security is something a little bit newer. Physical security goes back a little bit further, but how has the importance of the physical security in a building design evolved over just the past few decades? From a design standpoint, and certainly design professionals, architects, and spec writers and folks like that would have a lot more insight than I would, but what we've seen is I think the design community has tried to approach a new building design with security in mind, and there's even a concept out there, I think it's referred to as crime prevention through environmental design, and they're trying to design the buildings where they're helped to prevent crime and, obviously, therefore, make it a more secure building, so it's really a concept.

Instead of just putting up a building, put some thought into it and how to make it more secure through that design. What are some key standards, then, like UL 752, that govern the bullet-resistant products, and why are those important in design? Well, UL 752 addresses bullet-resistant products, and it is probably, I would say, it's the most prominent ballistic standard that is referenced in the U.S., anyway. There's others.

There's certainly NIJ, National Institute of Justice, ASTM publishes ballistic standards, but UL is probably the one that's referenced more often with a commercial project. You might see NIJ in some specs for maybe a military base or a federal government project of some type, but UL is certainly prevalent. There's 10 different standards, and they address everything from what we consider low level of protection up to high level of protection, UL level 1 through UL level 10, and then if you were to go outside the U.S., there's a whole host of other ballistic standards or certification bodies that address ballistic standards in the European Union and Africa and South America and other places, but UL is the most prominent one.

That manufacturers of bullet-resistant products and design professionals who are trying to create safer spaces would reference. How do building codes then and regulations influence the incorporation of bullet-resistant features in a design? All buildings have to be ADA compliant, regardless of whether there's bullet-resistant doors or windows in it, so that's certainly an overriding concern. And then in every municipality, whether it's a city, town, county environment, they all have different fire codes, and a lot of our products are installed in walls, so you have a wall penetration.

For instance, with perhaps a transaction drawer or a package receiver, you're actually going to put a hole in that wall to mount that product, and any time you do that, you certainly will have an impact on the fire rating codes within that locality. So, you know, I think ADA and fire code compliance are the two big ones from a building code regulation standpoint. What is the difference between bulletproof and bullet-resistant products, and does that impact design choices? You know, it's really one of semantics.

You may have noticed that through our discussion here, I've been talking about bullet-resistant, and I've tried to use that term versus bulletproof. You know, technically, nothing's really bulletproof. Eventually, it'll fail, and so we really try to use the term bullet-resistant to make that distinction.

You know, it's kind of like waterproof versus water-resistant watches, and what does that really mean? So, you know, bullet-resistant is the term we use, and that's meant to pertain to UL 752 standards. It's bullet-resistant to UL Level 1 or UL Level 8. Whatever it might be. So looking at kind of the integration of these security features, what considerations could be taken into account when retrofitting existing structures with ballistic protection? Well, it can be a challenge because if you contrast existing structures versus new builds, you know from the from the start that you're going to build a church, school, office building, and you have to incorporate some bullet-resistant standards, you can approach it one way.

If you've got an existing structure, then it makes it a little bit tougher because, you know, bullet-resistant products are typically heavier. Certainly, the glass is thicker. Just a lot of different design characteristics to a bullet-resistant window versus a non-BR window.

And so it does make it challenging. And I think where the big challenge comes in is if you've got to replace primarily windows because the glass is so much thicker when it's bullet-resistant that oftentimes the frames have to be replaced. Then you're looking at a lot of demolition and rework of that existing structure.

So if end users have the luxury of designing a building from the ground up and incorporating some physical security features like bullet-resistant windows and doors, they're a lot better off and it's an easier project than trying to retrofit. But retrofits happen all the time. Security changes or the security environment may change and someone's got an existing building and all of a sudden they feel threatened and they've got to put in, you know, bullet-resistant windows and doors and it's done all the time.

It's just a little bit different approach. So when you're looking at a retrofit or even new design, how customizable are bullet-resistant products to ensure that they fit specific design requirements? You can customize them quite a bit. You know, every or any time I hear the word custom or customizable, I always think about, you know, money and time.

And if the end user has enough money and time, they can really pretty much do anything. One project that comes to my mind is an existing structure, a historically designated courthouse. And with that designation, the outside of the courthouse really couldn't be changed or very little.

But the judge wanted bullet-resistant windows in their judges chambers because, you know, the security environment changed and there was now a threat. So the challenge was putting in or designing some type of window that could be installed on the inside of the judges chambers so you weren't impacting the exterior. And in that particular case, we designed some operable bullet-resistant windows, which were really a one-of-a-kind product at that time.

So very much of a custom window, if you will. And so they were installed on the inside. The windows could be open for cleaning purposes, maintain the existing windows and then closed.

And once closed, that gave the judge the requirements of some bullet-resistant protection in the form of VR windows. That's fantastic. So then how can design professionals ensure that security features are not going to impede any functionality or user experience within a space? Well, I think for the most part, a lot of end users really are probably are not aware that the door they just went through is bullet-resistant or perhaps the window they're looking out of is bullet-resistant.

Sometimes you can tell. One of the biggest challenges design professionals would have would be with the door locking hardware itself. So if you take a door, you know, a door is meant for egress and ingress.

You want to go in and out. And depending on what kind of hardware is on that door, and that really covers a whole another area of product design. But, you know, you can have electronic card readers, magnetic strips, all these different types of security devices installed on the door.

And if it's not thought through well, then yeah, it could be a real hassle for occupants of that building to use a door that's overly complicated to get in and out of. And I think that's something that design professionals need to be aware of and really understand what type of hardware they need to make that building secure, make that door secure, but not where it's overly complicated and is impeding the, you know, day-to-day comings and goings of employees. So hardware, doors, you mentioned windows as well.

So glazing, how can design professionals incorporate glazing while still ensuring that they meet security requirements? Well, back to my earlier comparison between existing building and a new build, with a new build, that can be taken into account. So really no big deal. It's they would specify bullet resistant windows versus non-VR and the design would show that.

Now, with an existing building, again, back to my earlier comments, it's a little bit more challenging because typically you have windows in a building and they're designed non-bullet resistant and yet you want to convert them into bullet resistant. You're usually dealing with a piece of glass, a bullet resistant piece of glass that may be two, three times as thick as existing glazing. And so that window frame would not, you know, accept a one inch or a two inch thick piece of glass.

So the window frame has to be replaced. So it requires a little bit more thought, probably a little bit more expensive, and you're going to deal with some demolition because you're going to have to pull the old frames out and install new ones. That's just a little bit more of a challenge, but it can be done.

So that's the biggest thing I think design professionals need to be aware of is that a bullet resistant glass is just thicker and heavier and you've got to have the frames to accommodate it. What about other materials then? Like a window film, could that be bullet resistant? Not that I'm aware of. There's a lot of chatter about bullet resistant film, and really I think that's a misnomer.

We've done some internal testing where we've taken some non-BR glass, had it coated with film, and then we shot it and it failed. So I'm really not aware of any bullet resistant film. And again, that's really just a misnomer.

I'm not aware of any film out there that would take a non-BR window and make it bullet resistant. Now the film does do a good job of reducing spalling, which we define as just shards of glass flying off the back side of the safe side of the window, which is certainly a security concern. But as far as stopping bullets, I'm really not aware of a film that will do that.

What maintenance considerations should be taken into account to ensure the longevity and effectiveness of bullet resistant installations? Proper cleaning. And that sounds kind of out there for a bullet resistant piece of glass, but some types of makeups like polycarbonate, for instance, polycarbonate is a plastic, and it's a very effective and aesthetically pleasing bullet resistant material. It's typically laminated, and if the proper cleaning materials are not used, sometimes those cleaning materials can cause a chemical reaction between the adhesive layers and between the layers of the adhesive material between the layers of polycarbonate and cause it to delaminate.

And, you know, that's not a good thing. So certainly proper cleaning materials and really exposure to the elements. If you're talking about interior bullet resistant windows, then, you know, they're probably going to last a lifetime.

If you're talking about exterior that are exposed to the elements, they may have a shorter, you know, lifespan just, you know, due to exposure to sun, wind, rain, you know, extremes in temperature and things of that nature. So let's switch gears a little bit to the science and the advancements of these products. Can you explain the differences between various bullet resistant materials such as fiberglass panels and bullet resistant grade glass? Yeah, and really we're talking about apples and oranges there because bullet resistant panels are what I refer to as opaque armor.

They're designed to be installed behind drywall to make the wall bullet resistant or installed into window frames and door frames to make them bullet resistant. So it's not meant to allow anybody to view through it. Whereas glazing, that's what it is.

Glazing is, you know, I often use that term as kind of a catch all for polycarbonate, acrylic, glass, glass clad poly and all different types of makeups you can have that go into a window or door. So completely different. You have panels that are meant to be hidden and do a very effective job in stopping bullets.

And then you have glass that's meant to be seen and allow people to view, you know, one side to the other and also does a very effective job of stopping bullets. So how do factors like weight, thickness, and material composition influence the choice of bullet resistant panels? Well, in general, if you go back to the UL 752 ballistic standards we talked about earlier, there's 10 different levels. Level one at the top of the table, top of the chart is a lower protection level or a lower threat level, level 10.

So if you look at a level one bullet resistant panel, it's going to be, you know, normally about a quarter inch thick. And as you increase the threat or the protection level, go up to level eight, for instance, all of a sudden that panel is close to an inch and a half thick, just a lot heavier, a lot thicker. And you need more mass to stop a level eight threat, which is a high powered rifle versus a level one threat, which is a handgun.

So in general, you know, as you look at the protection level, you're going to increase weight, you're going to increase thickness. Material composition is the same, but it's just a heavier, thicker panel because you need that mass, that additional mass to stop that higher caliber bullet. How have advancements in material science influenced the development of more effective bullet resistant products? Well, I think the glazing products out there now versus maybe 15, 20 years ago, they're nicer looking.

And I would say that's an advancement on the fabricator standpoint and the way they actually make a piece of bullet resistant polycarbonate or, you know, laminated glass. And it just, it looks very clear, clean. And again, unless someone's very observant, they're probably not going to know they're looking through, you know, bullet resistant glass versus non-bullet resistant glass.

So that's one area that jumps to mind. With the wall panels, they're basically fiberglass and resin. You know, you could manufacture a wall panel out of a Kevlar, which is referred to as Airmet.

It would be lighter and thinner, but it would be considerably more expensive. So it's really not practical in the building industry because weight's not a concern like it would be if we were fortifying aircraft or body armor or something like that. So in the building industry, weight's not a big concern.

So with the fiberglass panels, they're basically fiberglass as opposed to something a little bit more high tech like Kevlar, carbon fiber, some of those other lighter, stronger materials, but really aren't necessary in our industry. And then have you seen any or kind of predicting any emerging trends in the building security sector that design professionals should be aware of? Yeah, I think one of the more prominent trends is residential construction, residential security. It used to be we might see a homeowner a few times a year, they'd contact us and they'd want to fortify a single room in the house.

Oftentimes it was maybe the master bedroom closet and they would turn that into their safe room and fortify it accordingly. They put a bullet resistant wood door in there. They put some bullet resistant panels.

And now we've seen in the last few years entire houses being fortified. So that's a big swing from a single room to our entire house. So that's a trend that we've noticed.

So mentioning residential as a different type of building, how do security design considerations differ within various building types like schools or banks? Yeah, that is an interesting question because you think about it, someone's living in their home. In my opinion, they may be less receptive to some of the possible restrictions that you might have in a school or bank, you know, dealing with bullet resistant doors, windows. You're going to be limited a little bit in a home on, you know, the dimensions of a window frame or the dimensions of a door.

Things that, again, in a business, in a school, in an office building, police station are tolerated. But with a home, I think it's going to require the design professional to be a little bit more creative. For instance, instead of having an aluminum frame or a steel frame that has a bullet resistant glass in it, in a house, that frame may have to be clad in wood.

You know, just from an aesthetic standpoint, because I'm assuming, certainly in my house, I don't have metal frames. They're wood frames and they look nice and that's what most homeowners would expect. So, if a house is either, you know, built from the ground up or retrofitted to include bullet resistant windows and doors, those door frames and window frames could be clad in wood.

For instance, we had a project in the northeast U.S. and the entire home was fortified and they had some very heavy duty, I think they were U.L. Level 8, bullet resistant, hollow metal doors, you know, metal doors, but the doors were clad in some very nice wood veneer. So, you know, to the casual observer, they look like wood doors, but they actually were steel doors covered in wood. So, that is a big consideration because you're going to spend, hopefully, more time in your house than you will in your place of business and, you know, you'll notice things like that.

So, aesthetics are huge, huge part of the design for bullet resistant products in a house more so than I think in a building or a church or a school or what have you, a commercial environment. Yeah, absolutely. Are there any significant differences between the commercial applications then? No, I mean, you know, I think about some of the projects we've worked on, the products can be the same.

It's just back to my comments. If you're going to incorporate them in a house, they have to be covered up. We're in a commercial environment.

Office workers are used to walking through aluminum doors and those can very easily be bullet resistant aluminum doors. Anybody that's gone to a retail environment, a school, again, they're used to walking through aluminum doors, what we call storefront. They're very nice looking, but they're easy enough to make bullet resistant and no one really knows any difference.

And again, I think in a commercial environment, some of those concerns are minimized because if you're concerned about being attacked, then the ultimate goal is to make sure you've got the proper type of physical security products in there and they're bullet resistant. And so, I've had many a conversation with architects and they wanted to make some design changes on the dimensions of a frame or some other type of change. And at the end of the day, particularly with aluminum, those are extruded aluminum frames and so they're pretty much set when they come out of the die and it's difficult to make dimensional changes.

So, at the end of the day, if a building owner's concerned about being attacked by someone with a gun, then the overriding criteria is to make sure those bullet resistant doors and windows are installed there and if they don't quite meet the design criteria, then that sometimes takes a back seat. You make a good point there. So, are there any limitations to how much these bullet resistant products can be customized to fit a unique architectural design? In practical terms, yes.

You know, earlier we talked about that and if you have enough time and money, you can do anything, but there are some limitations. I mean, it's just at the end of the day, particularly with aluminum, those are standard extrusions and yes, new designs could be created and new extrusions could be run, but I think it'd be cost prohibited. Sometimes you just have to make compromises and again, if the overriding concern is a secure environment to protect against, in this case, gunshots, then there may be a few limitations that the architect, design professional, or the end user has to accept.

Absolutely. So, looking at some practical applications and industry collaboration now, what is the importance of collaboration between the design professionals and manufacturers during the design process? Well, I think earlier is better. So, particularly with design professionals who have not been involved in projects that require some kind of physical security product, if they haven't, then the earlier they start talking to industry, manufacturers, and get educated, the better off they are because as we've been discussing, there are some limitations and so I think it's incumbent upon the design professional to educate themselves early on, talk to manufacturers of all these products, and get a better idea of what the limitations are and what can be accomplished and what is really not practical.

So, earlier the better. We have a very capable design team and we model different products. We use a modeling software and so we can, I think, provide a lot of benefit to design professionals and we're also active with most of our products that are in Revit format.

So, we play in the BIM world and, again, I think that's probably a big benefit to design professionals is they're putting together project documents and trying to create a safe environment so the earlier they get on board and have a chance to educate themselves, the better off they are. It's a great collaboration, particularly if it's done early on and not after the fact. Absolutely.

So, are there some specific training or other resources that are available for design professionals just to stay informed about the latest in building security products? Yeah, trade shows, podcasts. I mean, this is a good example. You know, continuing education events.

Those are all very good sources of information. Certainly, you know, there's so much data available online. It just takes a little bit of homework, a little bit of effort and, you know, you can educate yourself on what's available.

Talking to manufacturers. Not all manufacturers manufacture the same type of bullet-resistant products. Some, you know, have pretty much a narrow product offering.

Others have a broader product offering. I think ArmorTech has a very broad product offering. So, it's good to talk to manufacturers and find out what's available in the marketplace and that way their design professionals are better prepared to approach that project.

What are some of those other products that are available from these manufacturers? Well, some manufacturers manufacture only aluminum-based products. I mentioned the storefront term earlier. So, that's a term that's common in the industry and it's, you know, aluminum frames with glass in it.

So, there's some companies that that's their area of expertise. So, they work only in aluminum. Other companies work with aluminum and hollow metal or sheet metal.

Some companies may only work on bullet-resistant wood doors. Others only manufacture the fiberglass wall panels. So, there's really, it really depends on the company and what their area of expertise is and how they go to market.

If they want to go broad, they'll offer a number of different products. And if they want to go more narrow and more focused, they might target a particular vertical market. You know, if you look at, I referenced schools earlier, hospitals, commercial office buildings, those three vertical markets are all big users of aluminum storefront doors and windows.

And if that's what a particular manufacturer produces, they would focus on those vertical markets. Whereas, you know, maybe a residence, back to the design concerns or aesthetics, you know, bullet-resistant wood doors look very nice. They're non-threatening.

They're nondescript. And they look like a regular door. So, some manufacturers may focus only on decorative bullet-resistant wood doors.

And we actually did a project not long ago at the U.S. Capitol. And we had a very old building there on the Capitol grounds that had some non-bullet-resistant doors in them. But yet, they wanted a tournamented bullet-resistant door.

So, that was a real challenge. But we were able to create some decorative bullet-resistant wood doors. So, that's a good example, just depending on if the company wants to, you know, focus on a particular vertical market or maybe a particular product line.

And are bullet-resistant products pretty specific to just doors, windows, and walls, then? No. There's a variety of what I would call accessory products. And that would include deal trays.

And those are usually made of stainless steel. And they're installed in counters or recessed in counters. And then a transaction window would sit on top of it.

So, that enables, you know, a transaction to take place, whether it's paying a utility bill, purchasing a ticket at a sporting event or a music event. That deal tray is an accessory product. You could have transaction drawers.

Everybody's familiar with really a transaction drawer. Anytime you go through a Walgreens, CVS, even a, you know, a fast food drive-thru line, those are basically transaction drawers that extend out and, you know, deliver your prescription medications or your food or what have you. Package receivers.

Home Depot and Costco both have an internal cash room. And they use this metal box, which we call a package receiver. It's mounted on the wall.

It's got doors on each side. And only one door can be opened at once. They use that product to transfer excess cash from inside the store to the armored car service that takes it to the bank.

So, that's kind of a unique product. And then there's a number of other, you know, kind of custom products that might lend themselves to use in a post office or perhaps a police station. So, yeah, there's a number of products, a variety of products that complement a bullet-resistant door, window, or wall panel.

Speakers mounted in the windows. Gun ports. Sometimes the military wants the option of being able to return fire if they're under attack.

So, there are different types of gun ports designed, sliding gun ports and pivot gun ports that are installed in either a wall or door. Oh, that's great with so many different options. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

With all of these options, is there a more commonly used material? You know, when it comes to performance and versatility, is there one material over another that tends to get used or requested more often? Well, if you're, if we're talking about framing, whether it's a window frame or door frame, aluminum is very popular. And we see that specified often. And, you know, it's aesthetically pleasing.

It can be painted or powder coated. So, really, if you don't want this traditional anodized aluminum finish, you can have it powder coated or painted almost in any color you want. So, there's a lot of options there, but aluminum is very functional.

It's durable, and it can be made into bullet-resistant material. So, I would say from a framing standpoint, aluminum is very popular. And then, you know, we talked about wall panels, and I mentioned Kevlar, carbon fiber, some of these other high-tech types of composites.

You know, they're great. They work, but they're expensive. So, typically, it's really fiberglass panels.

Panels made out of fiberglass are the predominant material there. Does the weight of the material ever factor into the selection? It does occasionally. With wall panels, not so much, because they're going to be, you know, placed on the foundation and attached to the studs and covered up with whatever the finished wall surface is, drywall or wood veneer.

Occasionally, it does with windows. I had mentioned the project with the historical courthouse and operable windows. So, obviously, if those windows are too heavy, they're not going to be fun to, you know, operate and open, and that pertains to a door as well.

Occasionally, you may have an oversized door that's really, you know, maybe a four-foot-wide door and eight-foot tall, and it's got a level eight protection, which means it's just one heavy door. And so, to make it more user-friendly, there's certain types of door opening devices that can be installed that can be adjusted to assist in opening that door. The same could be said about, I mentioned the gun ports earlier.

If they're a high-powered, rifle-rated gun port made of some very thick steel, they've got to be able to, obviously, be open and closed. So, again, there's certain types of hardware or devices that can be installed to assist in that opening and closing. Same with bullet-resistant sliding windows.

Occasionally, an end user may have some large packages, boxes, items like that that, you know, need a big, wide opening to transfer from what we would consider the safe side or employee side, public side, or threat side. So, you'd have to slide open that sliding window. Again, if it's high-powered, rifle-rated, then it's going to be some thick glass, you know, heavier frame, and it could be very tough to open.

So, there are ways to incorporate some devices to assist in that window sliding, you know, open and close more easily. And that's just all part of the discussion up front in the application and the frequency of use. If a door or window is not used very often, then it's probably not as critical to make sure it opens easily.

Absolutely. So, definitely a little give and take with what you need versus what you're able to achieve. Sure.

So, we talked about the collaboration between design professionals and manufacturers, but what about design professionals with their clients? How could design professionals collaborate with their clients to address concerns and help educate them about the benefits of enhanced building security? Well, I think the biggest challenge there, and we see it often, is when that design professional is talking to their clients and the client has indicated that they've got a security concern, and they've narrowed it down to physical security concern, and then narrowed it down some more to, you know, the client saying we're concerned about someone attacking our building with a gun. And the challenge there is the design professional in discussions with that client, they've got to determine, okay, is the threat from a handgun or a high-powered rifle? And that may sound like we're getting in the weeds a little bit, but there's a world of difference between, back to the UL 752 chart, UL Level 1 versus UL Level 10, for instance. And if a client really needs protection from someone attacking that building with an AK-47, which would be UL Level 8 protection, and for some reason the specs are written that they're going to put in UL Level 2 doors or windows, that's not going to provide the level of security the client wants or needs, and not even close.

Conversely, if they only need handgun protection, UL Level 1 or 2 or 3, and the specs are written in such a way that the job is bid out and Level 8 doors and windows are installed or, you know, procured, then the budget's going to be negatively impacted, because there's a big difference in price between high-powered rifle rated products and handgun rated products. So, that's a tough discussion, because you're asking the client and the design professional to really kind of predict the future. Now, they may consult with local law enforcement, they may consult with security consultants to help them narrow that down, but that's the biggest, I think, area of discussion that a design professional has to have with that client is, okay, the threat's someone attacking the building with a gun, let's try to figure out if that means handgun or high-powered rifle, and that's where that discussion needs to focus and to make sure the client gets the level of protection they want, and without having to pay extra for it.

Yes, definitely. So, majority of our conversation today has been about bullet-resistant protection, but how does understanding forced entry factor into this as well? Well, that's another type of physical attack, and if you think about forced entry, you know, it may be what we call smash and grab robbery. Someone takes a crowbar and breaks the glass on a retail store or a jewelry store to, you know, grab some merchandise, or it could take a little bit more of an aggressive attack.

I always think about U.S. embassies and consulates. One of their requirements is that the doors and windows in an embassy or consulate are forced entry rated, and that, you know, you can kind of get a visual of a mob moving down the street, and they've ripped a stop sign out of the ground or some other type of, you know, tool, if you will, and they're going to try to batter their way through an embassy, front door, or consulate. So, forced entry is similar in design to bullet-resistant, but a little bit different.

Now, you could incorporate both of those protection modes into one product. And matter of fact, with the U.S. Department of State who controls all the embassies, they do require that those doors and windows are both bullet-resistant and forced entry and sometimes blast-resistant. So, there are some similarities between those different types of attacks, but yet there are some differences.

When it comes to implementing these products, what are the cost implications of integrating bullet-resistant or forced entry or blast-resistant products into a design project, and how could designers help justify those expenses to their clients? Well, I think it gets back to, again, identifying the threat, and that's really going to be up to the end user and perhaps with assistance from local law enforcement or security consultants. But you've got to determine what the threat is, and if the threat is attacked by, you know, a handgun or a bomb blast or, you know, a mob that's trying to break into a building, then you've got to address them with the particular products, be it bullet-resistant, blast-resistant, or forced entry. And back to my previous comments about existing buildings versus new construction, it would be less expensive to incorporate some of those, you know, protection modes into a new building versus a retrofit, and particularly with the forced entry and blast-resistant, because the building itself may not accommodate those windows and doors because the building itself may not be able to withstand an attack by a mob or certainly a bomb blast, whereas with a bullet-resistant scenario, you're really talking about just a little bit heavier doors and windows, but typically most buildings can accommodate a heavier window or a heavier door.

But particularly with, you know, those other two modes of attack, blast and physical security, you know, the buildings themselves have to be structurally sound to be able to withstand that type of attack. So it's critical for that design professional to determine what the threat is along with the end user and then address it with the appropriate products. Rick, can you share some examples of successful integration of bullet-resistant products in architectural projects? I can, a few of them I can.

It's interesting in our industry, sometimes we're not aware of where our products are going. We may get a request from a contractor and all they tell us is what they want, you know, a UI level three rated aluminum window. And they give us an address to ship it to and that's all we know.

But other times, you know, we are involved and we know exactly where the products are going. And some of our high profile over the years, we've gotten involved with Amazon and their corporate headquarters in Seattle. They had a requirement a number of years ago to replace all the non-bullet-resistant wood doors on one of the floors in their office tower with bullet-resistant wood doors.

And, you know, again, those were highly secure doors, but they were clad in some very nice wood veneer so they, you know, they look like any other door, but they happen to be bullet-resistant. So that was the headquarters building for, you know, a major company in the U.S. Currently, I think JPMorgan Chase, which I believe is the largest bank in the country, they're building or finishing out their new headquarters in New York City. And they will, in some parts of the building, there will be some bullet-resistant doors, windows, and fiberglass wall panels.

Let's see. Another project that was very interesting, I just mentioned a minute ago about the Capitol Complex at the U.S. Capitol. And it's the oldest office building on the complex.

I'm not sure if it's an office building for representatives or senators, but one of the congressional office buildings. And they had some beautiful old non-secure bullet-resistant doors, and security level or security environment changed, and they wanted to increase it quite a bit. So they went to high-power rifle rated, and we were able to design and fabricate some very nice-looking bullet-resistant wood doors that did a pretty good job of matching the existing doors.

And so that provided enhanced security for that particular building. So those are three projects that come to mind. And in addition, I mentioned, you know, Home Depot's and Costco's all over the country, that's pretty much standard for them.

They all have these internal cash rooms, and they have to fortify them. So they put in, in addition to that packet receiver product I mentioned, they also put in some bullet-resistant windows and some fiberglass wall panels. They got a nice, secure room where they, you know, hold all that excess cash until they want to transfer it off-site.

We worked on a project, a retail environment, and this was in the northeast U.S. I'm not sure exactly what city, but from my recollection, it was completely unsecure as far as bullet-resistant materials concerned or products. And I'm not sure the details, but the security environment changed, and they were concerned about, you know, being attacked with a gun. So in that particular project, we installed some, or we actually designed and fabricated some UL Level 3, so handgun-rated, double wood doors, very nice looking, again, you know, aesthetically pleasing, non-threatening.

They put in a transaction window, they put in a packet receiver, and they also put in some fiberglass wall panels on the walls. So they really created a very safe envelope through doors, windows, packet receivers, and wall panels, which they didn't have before. And then another instance, there was a government facility, I want to say in D.C., Washington, D.C., and when it was initially built, it was built with handgun-rated doors, windows, and wall panels.

Security threat increased. They felt like they needed to go to high-powered rifle-rated products, so the handgun doors, windows, and wall panels were removed and installed some high-powered rifle-rated ones, you know, again, to enhance that security level or provide a higher level of security. And then there was a school on the west coast.

This was new construction, and I think through some extensive research and consultation with security consultants, they decided to go in with UL Level 7, which is, again, high-powered rifle-rated wood doors, fiberglass wall panels. So they created a greatly enhanced, securely enhanced school just from the ground up. So those are a few more examples that I think of offhand.

So when thinking about a fully secure building with multiple components, how do those work together to protect the occupants from threats? Well, I look at it as a system, really. And I think bullet-resistant windows and doors have been around for a long time, but up until about maybe 25 years ago, maybe a little bit further back than that, there was really no thought to securing a wall. And drywall or even concrete block, in some cases, will not stop a bullet.

So somebody invented these fiberglass wall panels, which are a great complement to a window, to a door, and you do create a nice system, so you've got a very secure environment. Picture an elevation where you've got a window, you've got a door, and now you've got wall protection, so it's a very nice, coordinated approach, and you do create a system. And then you could include many of those accessory products that I talked about earlier, whether it's a transaction drawer, a package receiver, just depending on the needs of the project.

But in that case, you've got multiple products that all work together to create that safe environment. Excellent. So as we close out our podcast here, what advice would you give to design professionals looking to prioritize security in their upcoming projects? Well, I really think it gets back to identifying, correctly identifying the threat.

And that just comes from, I think, discussions with the end user, you know, the particular geographic location of that project. A lot of things factor into it, but they've really got to determine what the threat is. Is it an attack by someone with a gun? Is it a forced entry attack, a mob coming down the street? Is it perhaps some type of explosive device? And then once they determine what the threat is, they can narrow it down and get granular and determine, is it a handgun threat, a high-powered rifle threat? If it's a blast threat, is it a low-pressure explosion, a high-pressure explosion? So you can really get in the weeds, so to speak, but it starts with what the threat is.

You know, okay, there's some kind of threat that's made this environment less secure than it was before, so how do we address it? So I think that's where the conversation has to start. Yes, and then what is one final thought or some words of wisdom you would like to share with our audience? Well, it's nice to be a U.S.-based manufacturer. That's not necessarily words of wisdom, but that's just a thought that I have these days.

It's nice to be producing, you know, products that serve certainly a benefit to end users and do it here in the U.S. And as far as wisdom, the industry itself is, you can look at it as kind of an offshoot of maybe the insurance industry, because we're providing insurance. If someone's concerned about being attacked, we've got products that actually make the building more secure, and it is a form of insurance, and hopefully it's never tested, but it can be. So it's an exciting industry.

As I mentioned at the kickoff of the podcast, that it's kind of a niche industry, but it serves a useful purpose. Absolutely. Well, Rick, thank you so much for taking the time to share your valuable knowledge and insights with us today.

It's been really fantastic having you on the Spec Shaman podcast. Well, thank you very much. I've enjoyed it.

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