Spec Shaman

Breaking Down Barriers: Navigating the Specification Landscape

• Jason Foura • Season 1 • Episode 1

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In this inaugural episode of the Spec Shaman Podcast, we are discussing the labor shortages impacting the building industry, the value of integrity in product representation for architectural specification and a surf shack dream realized in Costa Rica.

We are joined by Jason Foura of WOLF the VP of Market Development who oversees the architectural and down-streaming effort of the contractor base and a champion of longform conversations on the built environment. A graduate of Bucknell University, Jason has held sales, corporate training and management positions with various building products companies, including Cooper Tools, Pella Windows and Doors, and AZEK Building Products. On this episode, Jason shares his wealth of experience and how it has informed his approach to his work in the design and building industries.

This podcast is not available for AIA CE hours. Please visit www.ronblank.com to participate in an AIA CE podcast.

To find out more about Wolf:
https://www.wolfhomeproducts.com/

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In this inaugural episode of the spec shaman podcast, we're discussing the labor shortages impacting the building industries, the value of integrity and product representation towards successful architectural specification and the surf shack dream realized in Costa Rica. We are joined by Jason four of wolf, the VP of market development, who oversees the architectural and downstream effort of the contractor base and a champion of long form conversations on the built environment. A graduate of Bucknell University Jason has held sales, corporate training and management positions with various building product companies, including Cooper tools, Pella windows and doors and a Zack building products. On this episode, Jason shares his wealth of experience with us and how it informs his approach to his work in the design and building industries. Welcome, Jason. We are so glad to have you. So Jason, I was wondering, could you provide an overview of how you got started and ended up where you are now? Yeah, pretty interesting and kind of roundabout. Story. Good morning, Laura. Good morning bread. Yeah. So I went to school. And not really kind of understanding the exact path I wanted to take. I went into school for pre med and realized after my freshman year that that wasn't quite the path I was going to end up in. I think I enjoyed socializing a little more than I did studying, unfortunately. And those two don't usually go hand in hand. So I switch majors got into really more environmental science kind of a geology background, graduated from Bucknell with an environmental science degree. And along that path, I quickly realized also, as I began my adulting phase of life, that money, you know, at school was a tough thing to work out, right. I mean, I didn't have full ride by any means my parents helped me out as best they could. And quickly realized that I needed to figure out a way to make some money. So I ended up getting going into the ROTC program to become an army officer. And I got a two year scholarship, I got an air assault slot after my sophomore year to kind of work with helicopters and link up and do that kind of fun school, and then had to unfortunately go to get an official physical at Carlisle, down in Pennsylvania, where the medical that was where you had your medical exams. And I quickly realized my career in the army was probably a very short one. So my eyesight is very bad. As you can see, I'm wearing very thick glasses. And but yeah, my eyesight TQ me. So I ended up with about 50 grand in debt, and graduated back then. And you know, that was inflation or dollars is probably over 100 today. But I realized very quickly that I had to buckle down and figure something out. And so I moved to Atlanta, Georgia, with a roommate with a couple of my friends from my fraternity at the time, and in 97. And I ended up getting into the copier business really, again, just kind of not having any idea what I wanted to really do, I just needed to make money, right. And so I ended up working for a subsidiary of Toshiba, and I sold copiers and fax machines. And I made a pretty, pretty good chunk of change my first year. And I thought, you know, if I hustle, and I can do this, I can talk to people. Sounds like a logical career move. Right? From right, from environmental science into copiers and fax machines. But it was really more of just unfortunately, you know, out of necessity of just having to make, you know, pay my pay my debt load. And so I ended up in sales. And then I finished that career moved to North Carolina after a year realizing that again, I didn't want to cut quiet, that hustle was fun. I made a lot of money. And I thought, You know what, I need kind of a change of pace. I moved in with a buddy in North Carolina, and then got a job after that. traveling the country in a tool van. So I had a marketing position. Oh, that's very cool. Yeah, with a great opportunity from a company called Cooper tools to work on marketing program. And it was, the only regret I have is unfortunately, you said you're a writer, you're like, the better half of me where I don't have any interest in writing, per se. And I'm just not good at it. But I wish I would have because I could have made a really interesting coffee table. I called on all the old hardware companies in the country before they before unfortunately, a lot of them went out of business, you know, where the big box stores, the big box stores were growing at a rapid pace in the late 90s. And sprawling up all these small towns and, you know, a lot of these small companies that were family owned, you know, we're becoming obsolete, you know, just out of, you know, just, you know, antiquated processes. I was telling my son that story the other day, I called on a hardware store in North Carolina where they still had a tobacco ring from the people that would sit around the coal fire stove, and they would they would chew tobacco and you know, talk about their their day, maybe over lunch or whatever, and they would spit on the floor and Fortunately, that black ring was there, you know, 100 years later. So, yeah, no longer was the coal stove in the middle, just a hole in the floor that they covered up but in the black ring was still there. And so, you know, just that process and that I would have loved to have, you know, documented that a little bit better. But travel the country, I had every state but three. Well, I didn't get Hawaii, Alaska or North Dakota. I've been away on my own. But yeah, so I've been every state but too. But yeah, that was really fun. And it gave me really more of a interest in just traveling. That's probably where I got my bug for traveling and just really enjoying that, that side of it. So. So that's how I ended up originally getting in the construction industry. I moved after that I took off in between and got a promotion in St. Louis. And long story short, my friends are getting back out of the army that I went to college with. And we all decided we were gonna go travel the country for as long as we see, I guess as long as our reserve cash cash held out. So a couple of us just one of my buddies got into rock climbing. And then we traveled the West and visited a whole bunch of national parks and rock climbed for about five months. Awesome. And then my reserve, cash ran out. And I moved back to Pennsylvania and then got a sales job with Pella windows. It was a Gunton Corp, which is a subsidiary of Pella. So I sold for them for about five years and had a really good opportunity to learn about the construction industry and renovated some properties that that I had the opportunity to purchase back in the early 2000s. And so that's really how I got into it more or less was, you know, indirectly through copiers to a tool being an opportunity for a company and then moving back to work with the subsidiary apella and then selling directly to contractors. And then from there that path follow me to a much bigger company today than when I started but it was ASIC, which was scrapped building products. And then ASIC, you know, bought a bunch of companies along the way. And they acquired and got purchased by a private equity fund. And from there, I ended up at Wolf. So from Acer to wolf. So yeah, so about last 26 years somewhere in that in that edition, math, math math edition at about 26 years. But that's how I ended up where I'm at today. I've been with wool for 12. So that's awesome. I really liked the tool. I think there is a coffee table book there with the van story. I think that that fascinating. You could do it. Yeah, yeah, the life and the van. You know, it was really fun. I really molded me I think in the person I am and really my interest in just, you know, meeting different people. That was really cool. Because every day, so the way that the route was set, right? So, you know, my manager would set an overview route with different vendors. So in this part of the country, it would be you know, one vendor that distributed hardware to all the local places and we were the company that were providing the bigger picture like we were providing the products and the program and the program was giving them dating and you know, some type of sales incentive. And I would I had two closets in the van and I stayed in I think I traveled for I think it was a year and a half and I covered 155,000 miles. Oh my god. At one point I wish I would have seen that but I had a an almanac you know, back in the day when things weren't. Right. I had a I had an almanac that was like this big with like every road and I had everything highlighted. And so if I made so cool, like every major road in my travels, I've been everywhere on those so that's great. Did you did you stay in hotels? Or did you sleep? I did. I did I have slept in the van officially I have slept in that van was more on necessity, and a very rare, you know, rare occasion. But yeah, I had I had two clauses as an air conditioner on top and had a generator. And I still on a rare, rare random occasion. We'll have a nightmare that I lost my keys to the van. Oh, yeah, no, right. There's definitely some some sort of Freudian thing in there somewhere of going back deep into some of that, you know, just because I it was part of my life for really a year, a good year and a half. Yeah. But the nice thing is that they would give us a free flight. I think it was waiting once a month. I could go anywhere I wanted once a month and fly to see people on the companies. They had a travel agency like attached to the company, it was a big company. And so you know, I had I had it was like all on or then off, you know, like you were you had. So for example one one Friday, I left Virginia Beach. That's where I'm from. Oh, cool, awesome. Beautiful town. I had to leave virginia beach on a Friday and be in Denver for Monday morning for work. So that's kind of stuff you know, you're on or you were off I had to go from Erie, Pennsylvania to Louisiana. You know, those types of when when the programming would shift you know, I'd have to get in the van and just you know, get back in my days have been for Fortunately, too much nicotine and caffeine, which by the way, I heard a quote from John Daly say that nicotine plus caffeine equals protein. I'm not quite sure. I'm pretty sure that's a crowd. And that equation, but it works for him. Yeah, so those are the younger days, where I could road trip and cover a lot of ground. But it was fun. Yeah, it was really fun. That coffee book would have been would have been pretty cool to make pictures through the map as the cover, right? Yeah. Good stuff. But do you feel like you drew a lot of inspiration from that time to get into the AEC? Industry? I did. I did. I mean, I think, you know, the hardware side is kind of the same thing, right, you're selling tools to people that are doing the work. So that was pretty cool. I really enjoyed, you know, and most of it was basic hand tools, it was pretty, pretty basic, you know, parameters, the company had had acquired along the way, a bunch of these been the brands, and then those brands made up what we sold, so a crescent wrench, plumb hammer, you know, lovely tape measures, all those big brand names, you know, that that contractors knew, you know, by name, we're underneath that umbrella. But yeah, that's kind of I would say, part of probably how I ended up in the construction industry, more or less, I mean, coming back to Pennsylvania, and having an opportunity to work for a window company. You know, it seemed like a logical fit, right, I liked seeing that process come together. And, and it was good, I learned a lot. It was a good opportunity. So what excites you about the industry today? Um, you know, I really just enjoy seeing the light bulb go on for contractors. Yeah, you know, I do mostly what I do now is trained people. And so I think it's, I think, you know, in my, in my past experience, in the past, you know, quarter of a century of just talking to people and understanding products, I think it's really, it for me, it excites me when I get to meet someone. And you know, I tried to always approach things from kind of a, not only a best practice approach, but also a pro and a con. Right, there's no perfect product. And I think I've my experience, I was always frustrated when people would come to me and say this product is the best. And I'm like, well, that's, you know, that's that's kind of the way to the worst selling position to say that, I mean, everybody, everybody says their products the best, right? What does that mean? All right. So, you know, so for me, it was really more of trying to drill down a process of that I could really believe in and get behind where I was providing value, right? Because that's all it really matters, right? I mean, we have the things that come out of our mouth, you hope that there's enough value there, right? That people gravitate towards it, and that they, they really are persuaded and influenced by what you're saying. Right. And that's, and that's really what sales is about. And that's really where I tried to, you know, hone my, my craft, or just, you know, my, my direction on how I talk to contractors, just by really being genuine and just not trying to, you know, slam things or not trying to, you know, trying to come across as if it's some sort of sales position, and just really present kind of those pros and cons, how things really are meant to fit opposed to, you know, jamming square pegs and round holes. And I think a lot of companies and people do that, you know, with because everybody wants to be successful, I think, but unfortunately, you know, they sometimes put their own spin on it. And it doesn't always provide value. That's just, that's my, well, the authenticity and integrity are important than being on for that really makes a difference, I think creates a long term relationship versus Sure enough, your company is really good at innovation. How do they stay ahead of that curve? Yeah, pretty unique. So, you know, we've been in business for 180 years, a long time. So since 1843, right? So a lot of change along the way, the only the only thing constant is change. Right? And that's, and that's one thing that's really important. And and, you know, segwaying into that, I was asked to come over and followed one of my former bosses, basic over to wolf, Mike's Messenger, and I learned a lot from Mike. And along the way, you know, we've worked together for a while. And where that was unique is that I came over to really help with some of our own brand strategy. So prior to that, Wolf was always known as a standard two step, you know, distributor, we we got products, we represented products from another brand. And then we brought those products to the pro dealer market. Okay, so, so if you were Brand X, and you had the best company out there and sold the widget, you know, we were basically just taking your widget and we were, we were stocking it, you know, supplying it and breaking it down to get it to market. Right. So it's just that's the two step wholesale side. And so the unique part, which again, I think my wife realizes now it was the right move, and I knew it was the right move. It's just it's leaving something that you knew was a given to go to something that's unknown. 1213 years ago, we created our own wolf Home Products brand and strategy, you know, in the company, so a pretty big transition in the industry. A lot of folks I think made some bold predictions that were perfectly correct. act and and very bold, but we definitely pulled it off. And it's been a great ride. So what it does is it gives us the ability, you mentioned innovating, to really go out. And because we're, we're closer to the market, and I'd say most manufacturers, you know, some manufacturers are, but a lot of times there's a couple of steps involved. And people if you don't talk and get the right data, right, you may, right, maybe a little laggy, right, in your, in your, your go to market strategy, right. So, so because I felt like we had a really good insight, and we're very in tune with the market. It allowed us to create our own specification. And then by creating that spec that we felt was the right one, we could then move to find a supplier. And so very similar right to this gadget, right, they don't make their own their own phone. They just nobody knows that a Foxconn makes it but apples is apple. And so we're similar in that, you know, minus the, you know, 100 and $80 billion in cash for foreign reserves. But we're very similar in though in the sense in the sense that, you know, we have a spec and then we're not always tied to some of that manufacturing, I think that makes us a lot more. So for innovating, you know, you look at anything like if something changes, right, if you've had a manufacturing process for 20 years, and you've invested X amount of capital into the into that process, right, it's very hard to turn the ship. And I like to use the analogy, right? You're building a boat on the water, and it gets too big to turn it. Yeah. And that happens to a lot of people, right. Kodak film was a good example of that. Right? Oh, right. Yeah, you know, I mean, Kodak was a huge name. And, you know, they really, they got very, very large and almost untenable. And I think a lot of companies do have that unfortunate problem. And so for us buy, you know, and there are companies that we do own, but for the most part, a lot of what we, what we sell even through the prime source acquisition prime source is now our parent company. They they have a lot under our umbrella is a lot of specifications. So we have partner brands that we innovate with, meaning if a singular company comes out and says, Hey, I have the best new widget, you know, bring it to market, we can represent that product. And then when there's other products, where we have the ability to innovate, or maybe specify and use that process, something that's maybe a little bit later in their curve, something like PVC trim, or PVC decking, as an example, kitchen cabinets, we did we've done that with that side of the business, you know, we can create a specification and find someone else to make it for us. And then that way, if the market shifts, we're not tied to some sort of older antiquated process if you don't have a half a billion dollars tied up. Right? Well, that's a great way to model that. Yeah, it's worth it's worth well, it's been fun. It's been a good, I've been there for almost 13 years, it's been it's been a fun run. You feel like that's the future of building products. Evolution, do you feel like that's the way that it's going? No, I mean, I think it's very hard to do what we did, it was just one of those unique scenarios, you know, time time, and you know, just a little bit of luck sprinkled in there and timing. We were coming out of that, oh, wait, boom, right. So everything that crashed after, you know, up until AOA coming out of that crash, you know, it was it was scary for a lot of companies, and we just happened to have the right timing with locking, you know, the, the right position to make that move, and it really had paid off. I think, for other companies, it's just not quite the same, maybe ingredients mixed together. And so some companies have tried it and have had, you know, I'd say, okay, success, but I think in general, we've had, you know, we've had a very good run. And so it's allowed, it's allowed for that model to really kind of flourish because of how we have the timing and you know, along the way, again, we got we got acquired, so when our parent company is prime source, so, they have very, very similar, you know, go to market strategy as well with buying companies who have more of this, you know, branded branded strategy, but not necessarily having, you know, X amount of capital tied up in the investment behind it, you know, right. That makes sense. As the construction industry is changing, what transformations are you seeing? Yeah, probably the biggest thing I'd say from my because of my angle really is more on the architect side and more on the contractor side. So, a lot of is really just the challenge with labor. You know, I think you look at the generation where a lot of baby boomers were more hands on, you know, my dad's generation, a lot of them are retiring now. They're getting out of the industry. Unfortunately, the COVID I think COVID You know, had had a lot of negative effects on a lot of people. A lot of folks retired earlier because they were just they didn't want to deal with it. You know, they maybe they maybe they got laid off and they never came back. So I think that's probably our biggest challenge is getting a younger generation who doesn't seem to be as interested in being hands on as they do more computer, you know, screen time oriented, you know, just the nature, I think of what we're going to have to work through in our industry is figuring out how to entice younger kids to be more interested in the trades. That's a partnership with Ed two, I think my background is is a little bit of some teaching in K through 12 spaces. And there has been such an enormous college push that it pushed kids away from the trades. And you know, my husband, I'm okay. No, he's a rig welder. Awesome. Yeah. So he's a, he's a man on his tools. And he's seeing it firsthand. I mean, he's, you know, we're in our 40s, early 40s. And there is a gap of, you know, there's hardly any 30 year olds in his space at all. And then there's very few 20 year olds that are coming up. So you're absolutely right, I'd even say that gap is more like a chasm. I mean, it's really like, it's really just void. You know, it's sad, because you're right. I mean, I think we've, for that reason, or, you know, our society has kind of tricked a lot of kids into going into debt. And unfortunately, if you don't know what you want to do, college is a great thing, if you have a very focused plan, and you know exactly what you want to do. But that's where, you know, I could go down that rabbit hole with my beliefs on the college system. And just because I got out of school with a fair amount of debt, and I feel like I feel like in general, you know, our government, or we should put more pressure on colleges to actually place kids opposed to just taking their money. And, unfortunately, yeah, it seems like it's more of a it's more of a money grab than it is a placement, you know, situation. And that's really sad, because we indenture these kids to, you know, and again, once you take that debt, right, you have to pay it off the rest of your life, you can't even go bankrupt over it. So yeah, lose. It's a sad thing, right? Because if we made bankruptcy with with that, with that tied together, most people probably wouldn't be able to even get the loan, which would change, and that that number would, would drastically go down. But yeah, in general, we need to incentivize for the trades, for sure. But that's funny, you say that. So your husband's really well there and my son is 16 and a half and he just had a shop class. You know, I I've grown up being pretty hands on with him. And he didn't quite gravitate towards hanging out in my woodshop. But like most 16 year olds, they want to do their own thing. And so his spin on it was he got into machine shop welding. And he's a skateboarder so he made his own skateboard ramp and his own grinding rail. There you go. He learned CAD. And then he turned my woodshop it's been transformed into a metal shop now. So he's welding. Yeah, he's welding skateboard rails. So very cool. Plug for Quinn here. No, no, my husband is the old gate head too. So it goes hand in hand those boys they like skateboarding and welding? Yeah, it's a cool trade. You know, kind of exciting. You know, I always joke, you can take great photographs and somebody in the Midwest, I mean, those are like the ones that you find pretty easily stocked. But that's very cool. Pressure washing, I think is a great recommendation for your shop. I have I always have a garage full of metal shavings. And I have a pressure washer to bring in like every six weeks. Let's clean right on. Yeah, are super Shopback. Yeah. He's He's a much better world than he is a vacuum or let's just Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's very cool. If he ever wants to come hang out with a Texas welder, we got one. I got one for him. Absolutely. Teaches now to my husband. So he's teaches the trade. It's, and that's, that's a big thing. I think. I think really encouraging kids to go into the trades. It's a big part of that, you know, they're kind of it's kind of been not necessarily given the best lighting, I think in the ad space. And we're really having an enormous, like you said, a chasm. So there's, there's a lot to be done, I think, in promoting that level of education for, you know, real hands on skill sets, because we are not gonna be able to build anything if everybody can just design it and not put it into place. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we just need to change our priorities. I think, you know, we a lot of focus, there's a lot of money, obviously, in the universities, hence the inflation, you know, the events happened, and they just keep ratcheting that up. And if more people you know, open their eyes and realize that, you know, the trades are very, very viable way to make a great living, you know, very rewarding. Yeah, I think that'll change. We just need to have some good leaders behind it and not and not be held hostage by the by the banking cartel, unfortunately. Yeah. Well, there are some pretty good grants that have come out recently for people that are building those trade education spaces. And I think there's a lot of value in there, you know, do you think that that's one of the main challenges that the manufacturing process and construction industries are Facing Do you see any other ones? Aside from the labor shortages? Yeah, I mean, labor is definitely the biggest thing on my radar, just because I experienced it with so many, you know, working with so many. Definitely installers, you know? Yeah, I'd say that's, that's the biggest probably the angle that I see. As far as disruption. You know, one of your questions we had was disruption of what do you think is, you know, going to be innovative or disruptive, you know, one of the things we're seeing now is being in my space where we sell so much of synthetic or, you know, alternative decking products is, is the substructure, you know, the quality of wood today, unfortunately, isn't what it used to be, we don't have old growth and the newer growth type of processes, unfortunately, we've we've engineered wood to be a very have very large growth rings. So we want wood to grow fast, because it's a crop, right, we have to quick and cut it back down. And so I just see maybe some alternatives in that space, you know, transforming that substructure, I think it's, you know, it's a very large category, we're seeing some things come online now, that could be useful. That's definitely one of them. And just really more, in general, like more low maintenance products, you know, I think no one wants to spend time anymore, you know, staining their deck every year, you know, maintaining things, right. So, I think it's a balance of setting expectations. I always train contractors that, you know, as the price tag is going up, unfortunately, everybody's expectation followed it. So people have this notion that they spend 50 grand on a deck that it it'll self clean itself, you know, it's right. It's not a self cleaning process. But right. But in general, right, no one wants to have to maintain things. And so that's something we've been successful at is maintaining some of that, you know, that steering towards lower maintenance, you know, so designing products and developing products that, you know, reduce that maintenance load on the back end that people ask for labor? Yes. Or labor less maintenance? Yeah, I don't think that's gonna change anytime soon, for sure. So when you think about notable projects, is there like a case study that sticks out? That highlights that? Um, yeah, you know, in general, it's been fun the last couple of years, I've gotten to work on some pretty big HOA projects, very close associations, and I think they, they're, they're a fun process, they can be they can have their own challenges, but any you're trying to herd, you know, in some cases, 50 to 100 people together, and you're never going to always get the same opinion on things. But with I think, with good leadership, and having, you know, a good board that these HOAs some of them, you know, have having a strong leadership background on that, and having the right people is extremely helpful. But most of the time, they see that probably more so than anybody, right, when you start multiplying maintenance costs, on a large scale, it multiplies very quickly. So that's something where that's been really fun to help them through that process. And, you know, our, our particular product we sell is very, it's a lower maintenance product, which, which kind of segues into, I think, a worthy topic of, you know, you mentioned innovation and how companies, you know, can do this and look at transformation, I think one of the challenges that we've always had, or I've had at least is, you know, companies grow, they get big, and they take their product, you know, across the country, and regionally, not every product works as best as it can in some parts, right. So, you know, for example, for instance, in this particular part of the country, you know, one thing that hits home when we talk to the HOAs is products that are more low maintenance, right, you have moisture, the East Coast is unfortunately, you know, it's problematic with with cycling of temperatures, right, you go from freeze and thaw, freezing, thawing constantly, every every year. And then you have you, you throw in a lot of a lot of humidity, a lot of moisture, a lot of humidity, where, you know, the same product that would work in my state, you know, in Pennsylvania and doesn't wouldn't maybe work as well in Texas, you know, vinyl siding, and Texas, that's dark colors, right? melts off the wall, practically. And it definitely, definitely can cause challenges. So you folks see, probably more fiber cement in your area. And I would argue that you know, that lower maintenance products that don't absorb moisture work better in the east coast, where we have a lot of moisture. So that's always been challenging for me personally, just seeing companies kind of, you know, blanket this statement, and then they just covered across the country. I wish people would be a little more critical on on how we sell things. But you know, that's, that's maybe my own my own thing. But yeah, just just positioning those products. They don't always work in every single region. And I try to stress that when I'm talking to professionals, especially the architect community. Yeah, because one spec that you may have as your master spec for a project in Texas, and that same architect may spec Best Buy something in you know, in somewhere in the mid Atlantic, and it just doesn't always work the same way. We have different things. Yeah, that the biggest piece of advice you would give like the young professionals coming up is to understand their regions. Yeah, just understand your regions and understand that everybody's trying to sell a bridge to somewhere, you know, I mean, someone's always trying to try to leverage their product and so you know, I just work with people that I think are genuine in their delivery and really want to provide value. And so one of the things I've tried to train contractors to make that statement is, you know, when we say things, like, for example, there's someone HOAs, and they're talking about a low maintenance, siding product that's not gonna absorb moisture. And I would say to them, you know, look, guys, that same product that we're not recommending in our area works extremely well, in the southwest part of the country. So it's not that it doesn't work in general, it's that it doesn't work best here. Right. And I think that's really important, right? Because that's the right way to sell something right is, is we're providing value based on how products fit, you know, and not jamming square pegs and round holes, and unfortunately, with with the right amount of money and branding, right, right. One of the good things with money and branding is you can create branding awareness, and people will make those blanket types of specifications. And before you know it, right. It's just, it's it's going everywhere, and then don't even always know why they're using it. Because they don't question they don't question is brand follows through the spec follows through and it may or may or may not always fit in the right place. So and then they have failure on the back end. Yeah, you can have a bigger maintenance schedule, right on their maintenance schedule than maybe you were originally intending. Right. Right. Yeah, that's, I mean, I understand the East Coast aspects are like very well, my mom lives right on the Susquehanna River at the top of the Chesapeake Bay, and she lives in a condo that has an HOA, and they definitely have to look at the materials that you all provide and things like that to make sure that they don't have to deal with the issues that wish if she's living isn't having a grace or shit feels important deposit. So she's about she's about 40 minutes from my house. Have you been to leave landing? No, but I've been to Elks landing that's not far from her. Down there. And you know, she's probably, I'm sure she you've done your fair share of blue crabbing? Yeah, yeah, that's just peek traditional. Without on the boat yesterday. They have pretty bad storm. So she, yeah, you know, waiting. She got out yesterday. She's stoked. Crab picking is a is a great tradition. That's one of my favorite things to do in the summer. Yeah, that's absolutely, yeah, I grew up doing it. Right there on the deck. Yeah, yep. Yep. Yep. Um, when it comes to marketing and promoting, I know, you talked a lot about authenticity and integrity. Is there anything else that you think you know, regionally specific recommendations, I think are important. Is there anything else that sticks out to you? And what aspect like what angle? Just when you're talking about when you're building the relationship between building products and design professionals? Yeah, I mean, I think it's just about you know, a lot of it too, is, you know, I think one of the one of the things that I want to suggest for anybody you know, younger getting in the industry is do it because you like it first. You know, I've always had people, I had a renter, one time that was in college, and I said, what do you what do you get? You're graduating, what are you going to do? He said, I'm going to be an investment banker. And that's, there's nothing wrong with that, right? We need investment bankers. But I think that I said, What do you what's your angle on that? Why do you want to go that route? He said, Well, that's where the most of the money is. And I thought, man, if you're just chasing money, and sure enough, I ran into him a few years later, and he had left the industry because it was, it wasn't what he thought. So don't do it for the money. You know, I always say that, if you're passionate about what you do, you're going to promote, you know, a good a good approach to things people are going to going to gravitate towards your passion, you're going to exude that in the way you deliver things, and they're going to gravitate towards you and the money will follow, right, the money will follow if you're doing well, and you're gonna do well, because you like it. And when you like something, you know, people can sense that, right? They know that you're being more truthful, they think they're gonna recognize that you're being more honest with your approach. And you truly want to bring value. And I think that's always more important than anything, right? I mean, if you're going to be in sales, you have to be viewed as promoting value and, and providing solutions. So yeah, I would say for anybody young, you know, just, you got to put the effort in, you know, just put your head down for the first 20 to 25 years and just hit the ground running as hard as possible. I have, I don't manage anyone now. And my position had changed because I got kind of moved into doing helping with some product development, but also, you know, managing all of our contractor content and architectural content. But when I had managed folks, you know, a lot of them were more of a younger position I would manage, we would have them as product specialists, they would enter the market and their sole job was to call on contractors and architects and yeah, so I've, I've, I may have five or more people that I've actually promoted at some point, just as an entry level job right? I mean, the younger generation I always tell them you know, you have to you just got to you got to show up and you got to put the time in and for those who get that they do very well and I think it's it is going to be challenging though for the younger generation. I don't feel like they have white as well. quite as strong, maybe of the work ethic as some of maybe our generation, I'm almost 50. So, you know, it's just I think it's just the natural change maybe and how, you know, different, you know, different sectors of our population, you know, and, and different, you know, demographics work out, it's just a natural tendency, today's kids would rather be behind a screen, and maybe email, you then actually go make a sales call. And so something I think that's, that's more challenging today. Do you think that's one of the biggest challenges in getting the product specified? Is those interpersonal skills? Yeah, you have to get in front of people, you know, it really is a, you know, and what I'm saying isn't anything new. But it really is just a numbers game, you know, whether I'm looking at specifications or whether I'm looking at sales calls, obviously, there needs to be quality in there, I'd always rather have quality over quantity. But in general, right, the quantity will always push you through, especially starting out, right? Especially, you have to, you just have to put the numbers in, you know, you have to put the hours in and and the numbers, and you just have to see people, and you have to handle the rejection. It's like casting calls, I did some acting in my college years, and you had to you had to go get rejected, like 100 times before, you know, that you wanted so? Well, you know, he's just example when I was selling copiers, you know, it's crazy. On Wednesday, we had to make 100 phone calls before noon. Okay? Or you could out you couldn't leave the office. And if you were the last one out, you were you're definitely holding the bucket, the bucket that was not filled with joy, you're you're buying everybody's lunch. And dragging your tail between your legs. I mean, you were definitely getting browbeat by the manager. So yeah, it was, it was it taught me a lot, you know, I mean, making cold calls, and you just got to put the time and you gotta you gotta genuinely, you know, make make those efforts. And numbers do count for sure. Yeah. When you approach things like sustainability, what are the biggest impacts that sustainability is having on these industries? Right now that you see? Well, one of the challenges that I have always found was the authenticity of some of that, of that of the statements behind sustainability. Right. I mean, greenwashing, we know happens. And again, with enough money and enough branding, right, you can you can claim your products take you to the moon, you know, that's probably my biggest frustration is when I hear someone's asked me, you know, is your product sustainable? And then I always usually respond with Well, before I go down any rabbit hole, right? Explain to me what is what sustainable? What does that mean to you? And I think I talked to 50 Architects, they probably would all have a different approach to what sustainable really means. My personal perspective on it is, is I sell products that typically aren't, you know, aren't as renewable, right? A lot of our products are some sort of polymer based or, you know, maybe a synthetic type of resin, or maybe a PVC, you know, based or some type of some of some of the decking we do so has a tremendous amount of recycled plastics and an HDPE, which is basically your milk jug plastic. But in general, right, in general, you know, it's not something that's being regrown, and you get to cut it back down, but, but they also hold up, you know, at a tremendous rate, you know, you're seeing a lot of these products, do they have a 30 to 50 year warranty? Right? And that longevity is important. Yeah, I mean, even 25 years is very, very reasonable on on most of those products. So it really just can be challenged, I think we just needed to do a better job of putting metrics behind, you know what sustainable means. And I don't know if we're ever going to get there. Because it's for a lot of people, it can be very emotional, right? I mean, there's emotion tied to it. You know, some people just have a thing. When I say PVC, they don't want to specify it. And I say, Well, if you're specifying new growth, cedar, which may have taken 25 or 30 years to grow, and you put it back down, it is regrown. So that's definitely sustainable. But if we have to repainted every eight or 10 years, or we have to go through the exercise of possibly patching and repairing, not quite as sustainable, maybe as, as you may have originally viewed it, so it's just difficult, right? It's a challenge, very challenging, broad brush statement that I think needs a lot more open dialogue, really, and trying to take as much emotion out of it just so we can really just try to put metrics on it. You know, and I think that would only help our industry is to better define what that what that means, you know, maybe a consensus of it may take 1000 architects to talk through that or engineers text, but he really needs contractors also. Right. You mean because they're part of the process? Yeah. I think I think one of the challenges too, is a lot of times, you know, the way that a contractor views something in the way an architect views something is pretty much juxtaposed pose. It's really, sometimes they can be oil and vinegar. And I think, you know, having more open dialogue to talk through that sometimes to reach a better understanding of what the industry needs would be most helpful. For sure. Yeah, like a summit honestly. stainability stations. Yeah, I mean, I, my my preference on something, honestly, is more moisture management. I love talking about that stuff. And I think understanding it, I don't think our industry fully understands, you know, how moisture condenses in a wall cavity and when you have areas of humidity and you know, the challenge in the East goes to is, you know, we go from hot in the summer, which is which is right, nobody has. So what does everybody turn on when it gets hot? The air conditioning? Right? Right. So now you have cold on the inside hot on the outside and always goes from high to low gradient. Right? Right. So it's always forcing towards the cold side of condensation. So now we just take it in a normal wall cavity. And in the winter, it's to the inside of the cold. And then, you know, or in this in the winter, it's on the outside summer, it's on the inside. So you know, it's in flux all the time. And that's, that's something that I think a lot of different companies don't take into account, I think a lot of our code is is kind of old and antiquated, although, although the balance is tough, right? Because if you start, you know, we talked about it before the podcast started about, you know, adding different codes to that are going to be enforced. And then we start adding more our value to the wall cavity, which I think is a great idea. But there's a balance between people being able to afford it, you know, so, right, I think we need to do more long form discussion. I think that's what I love about podcasts. I listen to a ton of podcasts. And I enjoy the long form discussion, because it's a lot just a a broad brush, hey, let's just talk about, you know, code. And what's important. It's just a lot of times, unfortunately, money dictates the bigger companies who have a bigger pool of money to put aside for helping to write the code. They they ironically get to write themselves into the code, I can give numerous examples, and not to say that on this podcast to incriminate anyone, but that happens, right, that happens. It's very, very evident. And unfortunately, unless we start having better an open dialogue, it's not going to fix itself. Because the reflection process, right, yeah, of understanding it, I was meeting with someone that designs, basketball flooring, and has to deal with those those products and how humidity affects them. And they were talking about the changes in the age back industry, and how that's really causing some issues for people that are trying to maintain the humidity and a space to install the flooring to maintain it. And so there's, you know, there's a lot of I think, evolution going on with, you know, global climate initiatives that are impacting these industries in ways that no one, you know, there's always intended consequences and unintended consequences. And then this point of conversion is really a big challenge. I see, you know, everyone kind of facing and, and puzzling about, like, how do we address this? How do we deal with the sweeping changes that are happening really quickly? How do we catch up, you know, unfortunately, with our very human short term, you know, attention spans, you know, long form discussion is coming back, but it's, you know, unfortunately, the media, right, immediate doesn't make money on long form discussion. They make money on sound bites, and, and snippets. And that's that we need to get away from that, because we're not we're not doing ourselves any service, as a race, as a society, by you know, of humans, right, by just short for form, you know, soundbite attention, low attention span answers when these things are complicated, and we don't just fix them, you know, by listening to a soundbite. So, it requires layers of research. You know, I think that's the point of this podcast really is to kind of create a format for everyone to be able to discuss these and then ponder it, you know, I don't think that we want to come to conclusions as we're learning something immediately. You know, I think that you know, reflecting and synthesizing and then learning a new layer I think is really an important thing and the long form you're right I think is the best way to solve some of these bigger issues well and there they are, they're not is just cut and dry because we need to also needs in some cases everybody you know, the same people who are crying and crying for more affordable housing, you know, what more code and you can't always have both, right? It's it's a it's a confliction there and so you know, managing moisture in a house cavity does require a few things you you build a better Styrofoam cup you know, you manage or you manage the moisture on the inside of the house you know, and unfortunately those things both both cost a significant amount of money to do that to do it well to do it right. And when it's not done right in our area, we have numerous class action lawsuits against synthetic stucco because the wall cavity is not thick enough and you have a lot of mold and rot inside the wall cavity. In fact in East Coast you can't sell house unless you test for the amount of humidity if you have a stucco you have a synthetic stucco you have to get a moisture reading before in disclose it before you can even sell your home so that's it's a huge problem in the East Coast. And yeah, I have some my own ideas but unfortunately, you know for renovation work they all cost more money and Not everybody wants to spend what they should spend. And that's back to a whole different approach to of America. You want everything to look great inside, but as long as you look good on the outside, as long as it pretty, that's right, as long as it looks good, looks good from the curb, you know, it could be rotting from the inside. But we don't want anybody to know that. And so that's something we have to I think approach as a society, and figure it out that you know, better. And just be honest with ourselves, too, because it's not, you know, it shouldn't be just about what the exterior looks like, we should be worried about plein air, we should be worried about how much moisture is being accumulated in our house? And, you know, in typical, you know, American fashion, if we can't see it, it doesn't it doesn't, you know, it doesn't matter to us. If it's, you know, it's something we should definitely be paying more attention to for sure. Absolutely. Is that do you have a personal philosophy that kind of you carry through with what you do? Well, I just want to be true to myself. You know, I think that, you know, salesmen are notorious for just telling people what they want to hear. And I don't I try to not, you know, I try to really not prescribe to that approach. I think it's, I think it's harmful for your own integrity. I think that, you know, we're not we're really just kidding ourselves when we do that. And, and so I try, I've tried to, and I think I've succeeded very well, it just, I've trained man, probably well over 4000 contractors, I've, I've, you know, just with just with, you know, just with the Ron blank, folks, in presenting webinars, I've probably presented to over 4000 Architects, so, you know, in general, I just, I want to be consistent, right, and I want to continually learn, I learned a lot from talking to other people, and especially contractors and architects, and so, really just being open minded to be and being willing to learn and, and just being true to yourself, you know, just just really, you know, understanding that there's not always a one side approach, and just making the right recommendation for the right reason, I think that's more important thing. Yeah, that's the, that's a cool thing about this position that I sit in, because I, I get to learn so much from everyone. Gonna, I'm like the filter of, of this, this conversation between people like you and the design professionals, and there's so much in the industry, you know, that it's just really interesting to kind of wrap my mind around. So it's really very true. How does does your work inform your hobbies? Is there something that you do that you feel really, like, you know, brings you to where you want to be? You know, kind of, I guess, I mean, I thought I've thought about that in the past. And it's interesting, because, you know, I have never been not known for not talking or not having an opinion or not, you know, not voicing myself. And sometimes it's, it's gotten myself in trouble also. But I think a lot of the things that I've gravitated towards, honestly, are interesting enough, they probably are more of a have the exact opposite. You know, so, you know, the rock climbing approach, right? I mean, very, very focused, you know, you're not talking anybody, you're on a rope, right? I mean, there's times where I've climbed, you know, multi pitch climbs, where I've climbed for probably eight or 10 hours, and throughout the whole process, and, you know, may have said, 50 words to one of my best friends, you know, and so, yeah, I do really enjoy that solitary aspect of it, I do a lot of hiking. I love traveling, you know, I've dabbled with surfing a little bit, and it's all kind of the same, you know, process is that you're, you're really in the moment. And you're and you're not, it's the opposite of selling, right? You're home and you're just in your own head. And you're super focused. And I find that to be probably the most really most relaxing and the most rejuvenating thing I can do to really kind of, you know, recharge my batteries. And ironically, it's the opposite of how I make money, right? Yeah, so but I do enjoy that probably the most. Yeah, I don't rock climb as much as I used to, I don't rock climb much at all anymore, really. And now that I have two children, I have almost 16 and a half and almost a 13 year old. So you know, just just I think in the older I've gotten obviously is realizing my own mortality. It's you start playing with things in perspective. And so, you know, worrying about that on the rock wall probably isn't the best thing. That so surfing is a little bit safer, right? I mean, where do you serve? I have served in Costa Rica a few times. I really enjoy it. I need to get back down there. That's been super fun. I had a really interesting connection with someone that had left Canada who was a judge and ended up getting in the building industry kind of the same thing. He just his love and passion for building. A really dear friend of mine, Claude Marlowe became a customer of ours. And so I started to handle some of our exports. And then one thing when to another and I was had a really good fortune of being able to with his, with his most of his help by a really small house down there. So COVID kind of screwed all that up. But the invites out there. I know, I've asked Brad to come down and serve with me on the next trip down. But that that has been a really I've been very grateful for for that friendship and that, that whole tie in but yeah, so that's what I do. I would like to do more of it. But that's I actually really enjoyed. I was down there with my family before COVID. And the kids were much smaller. And we have a picture of all them surfing, we caught a small wave and all we got pictures of all four of us, my wife and my two kids all all together in the same picture. So that is that was very, very gratifying for a dad to have that and see that it was fun. Yeah, yeah, I definitely can. I grew up doing surfing at the Virginia Beach and in Sandbridge. So surfing is, is really fun skateboarding and surfing can't go wrong. I didn't want to be a Mexican, and then I did. But, you know, I, when it comes to parenting, I've read a really cool snippet from somewhere on YouTube, I think. But it was a psychologist talking about being a shepherd opposed to the engineer, I've had to learn very, very difficulty that, you know, being the shepherd and just being there to help my flock is a lot more important than trying to engineer him to not be a skateboarder. So I went along with it. And yeah, I've always just tried to support you know, what his interests are opposed to a minor. And it was a good lesson. It's good parenting. Yeah, I think that that's a great philosophy. It works a lot better than jam and square pegs around. Oh, yeah. You fold it into your your family life. That's a good application. Yeah, for sure. Does he play music at all? Or is it just you? Oh, you know, I've been trying to put a band together for 20 years, raise two kids, and he has a, he has a Stratocaster and is sitting hanging on his wall with an amp. And I had I thought I had my way I went through, I have a ukulele that no one plays, we have a mandolin that no one plays, I had a Oregon that I thought we could get him to play. So back since collecting dust in the basement, and I won't let him sell the guitar, because I'll pick it up. But yeah, I'll keep trying. You know, Brad is Brad and Ron had been a great influence in Landon on the increase on the singing side. And that whole, you know, the whole architects of rock threw this in a really, really fun opportunity. And so they're taking that place of my family band that I never had. So, yeah. So yeah, I've been trying to get them to play for a long time. And it's just one of those things where, you know, I'll keep trying, but it's not their thing right now. So there's still time, if I picked it up late myself, you know, I, I have to, I have to really work at it. I love music, and I really love playing but it never came natural. But I didn't pick it up till I think I graduated college. So yeah, it's yeah, there's still hope for them. I got a hollow body when I was in my 20s. And I'm a little bit not enough to play in our band now. But I've always loved it. So yeah, that's great. Yes, whenever it same kind of thing back to the you know, that whole, that whole idea whether it's golfing, or you know, you're just focused on what you're doing. And I enjoy just the process of like hearing a song and then seeing if I can figure it out. And most often, depending on who's playing it, I actually have to push it to the side because I can't figure it out. But I love the process of trying to figure it out. And I know it's really good for our brains to do that. Whether you know, whether it's doing that or just just that singular focus point, whether it's skateboarding or playing golf, or rock climbing, surfing, you know, playing guitar, it's just, it's really good for our brains. So I agree. I agree that Brian really figured out something. He's just blowing up, I can get over what he can do with the guitar. And it's such a simple way, man. Yeah, I heard the I wanted to play it. That song going south, I think. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's a great YouTuber that sitting next to campfire. Yeah. And he was former Air Force, I believe. Yeah. In military boy. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Very fun. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us. And and yeah, we successfully did it. That was a very short hour. I told Brad I could I could pull the other easy way now. Yeah, definitely.

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Laura Elliot

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